Ceiling at Nationals

Luo
Staff Emeritus
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 507
Joined: March 21st, 2011, 1:31 pm
Division: Grad
State: MN
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 13 times

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by Luo » April 23rd, 2012, 9:27 am

It might be relevant to note that the Helicopter location used for the Florida state tournament was the Engineering Building 2 Atrium, not The Venue. I wonder why they're not using the same location for the national tournament as they did for the state tournament.
Proud alumnus of Mounds View High School Science Olympiad, Arden Hills, MN
Co-founder of the MIT Science Olympiad Invitational Tournament: http://scioly.mit.edu/

User avatar
danyalukin
Member
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: March 2nd, 2009, 9:49 am
Division: Grad
State: NY
Location: Ward Melville HS, Long Island, NY
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by danyalukin » April 23rd, 2012, 11:09 am

Perhaps the possibility of the fact that the other gym IS available but the selection committee was not fully aware of the importance of a flat ceiling for helicopters? In that case it would do no harm to attempt to clarify the issue.
Off to Orlando!

chalker7
Member
Member
Posts: 612
Joined: September 27th, 2010, 5:31 pm
Division: Grad
State: HI
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by chalker7 » April 23rd, 2012, 3:29 pm

danyalukin wrote:Perhaps the possibility of the fact that the other gym IS available but the selection committee was not fully aware of the importance of a flat ceiling for helicopters? In that case it would do no harm to attempt to clarify the issue.
No, the nationals organizing committee are extremely experienced and help review all of the rules every summer. They know what they are doing, I have nothing but respect for them and to suggest that a kneejerk reaction to a photograph of the site is superior to their measured decision is inappropriate. The site is going to be what it is going to be, and I will put forth all the effort I can to maximize its quality for all of the teams. That is my (and other organizers/supervisors) job, not the competitors.
Just a word of advice, both as a previously high level competitor and a long time supervisor. Do not worry about or attempt to change the things that you have no control over. That will only stress you out and waste your time. Instead, focus on what you have direct control over, mainly optimizing your design, practicing your flying and making sure you are 100% prepared for the competition day. Honestly, from the photograph, the ceiling looks like it has plenty of open spaces, so perhaps you could practice your launch control and precisely locating spots on the ceiling free of obstructions.
National event supervisor - Wright Stuff, Helicopters
Hawaii State Director

User avatar
danyalukin
Member
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: March 2nd, 2009, 9:49 am
Division: Grad
State: NY
Location: Ward Melville HS, Long Island, NY
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by danyalukin » April 23rd, 2012, 4:42 pm

That's OK. I was just hoping that something could be done, but if things are as you say they are, we'll make the best of them. Thanks again, and we will see you in Orlando! :)
Off to Orlando!

User avatar
lucwilder42
Member
Member
Posts: 114
Joined: March 30th, 2010, 10:01 am
Division: Grad
State: MI
Location: Grand Haven
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by lucwilder42 » April 23rd, 2012, 9:08 pm

My apologies, I did not mean to question the national committee's judgement. If I had to guess I'd say the Venue was chosen for spectator seating since its huge. Oh well, it's nationals anyways, if the copter gets caught its not the end of the world.
I'm just here to build bridges

cupcakefacex
Member
Member
Posts: 2
Joined: March 27th, 2012, 6:49 pm
Division: C
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by cupcakefacex » April 24th, 2012, 12:16 am

chalker7 wrote:
danyalukin wrote:
chalker7 wrote:
Also, tethering is allowed and described in the rules if a team is that concerned about the environment...
The rules state that "competitiors must not steer the helicopter"...
Also, the rules state that a cieling without obstructions is preferred over a high ceiling.
Most importantly, such conditions are actually unfair to some teams: Evidently, a chinook helicopter is more likely to get stuck in the rafters than a coaxial helicopter, simply due to its geometry.
Could the competition site be possibly changed to omit good/bad luck from competition?
I apologize, I forgot that we did not include official language about tethering in the printed rules. Nonetheless, the statement about ceilings are clearly a preference, not a requirement (so as to not disqualify sites, we would prefer the event be run in an less than ideal location than not run at all, which are often the options.)

I fundamentally disagree about the fair/unfair argument. All teams will be presented with the same conditions by the supervisors. Whatever the teams bring is up to them. It is not the job of the supervisors to provide ideal conditions for every potential design (I can think of multiple other designs that might be more likely to hang up than a chinook,) that would be impossible. Instead, it is the job of the supervisor to provide a fair competition that follows the written rules closely. A secondary goal is giving every team the most favorable conditions possible, but we have to settle for consistency when perfection is impossible. And trust me, I take perfecting sites extremely seriously. I was once threatened with having the police called on me when I tried to turn the air conditioning off at a tournament.

And no, we can't change the competition location this late, however we will definitely try to make things as favorable to all of the competitors as possible (but will obviously settle for consistency.)
does this mean that tethering will be allowed?

gcruz24
Member
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: January 15th, 2010, 8:30 pm
Division: C
State: NH
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by gcruz24 » April 24th, 2012, 2:17 pm

Spectator-Friendly < Testing Helicopter's to it's full potential

User avatar
danyalukin
Member
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: March 2nd, 2009, 9:49 am
Division: Grad
State: NY
Location: Ward Melville HS, Long Island, NY
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by danyalukin » April 24th, 2012, 2:34 pm

gcruz24 wrote:Spectator-Friendly < Testing Helicopter's to it's full potential
The gym is what it is, there is no reason to continue this discussion. Besides, we should have already understood that the gym was selected wisely and no better option that suits all of NSO and the campus of the university exists.

On that note, sorry again for the inconvenience, chalker7, and thanks for clarifying things. We meant no harm and only wanted to do the best :)

~Daniil
Off to Orlando!

chalker7
Member
Member
Posts: 612
Joined: September 27th, 2010, 5:31 pm
Division: Grad
State: HI
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by chalker7 » April 24th, 2012, 2:45 pm

cupcakefacex wrote:
does this mean that tethering will be allowed?
Submit an official clarification.
National event supervisor - Wright Stuff, Helicopters
Hawaii State Director

User avatar
Lily Essence
Member
Member
Posts: 67
Joined: March 29th, 2009, 1:36 pm
Division: C
State: TX
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Ceiling at Nationals

Post by Lily Essence » April 25th, 2012, 10:41 pm

I have previously submitted an FAQ earlier in the competition year... This was my post about it.
Re: Helicopter Testing
by Lily Essence on Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:55 pm

Not sure if this is the right thread to mention this, but tethering isn't allowed. (Or at least, if you do tether, you'd be put behind other teams that don't)

I just wanted to mention this since I e-mailed my FAQ to SciOly and they've responded, but haven't changed the FAQs yet. I kept being told by my coach and others that tethers were being allowed this year, but when I read the rules, I couldn't see how they could allow that since the rules specifically say that teams cannot steer their helicopter. (therefore, teams that do would be tier two'd) And (to end this confusion on my end) I submitted a FAQ.

Have you guys been told differently about the tethering question? I hope that SciOly updates their FAQ to reflect this, since I foresee a lot of confusion if they don't...
Notice the date: November 13. Even then, I was already worried that the FAQ wasn't updated after my question. Here is the complete e-mail as well as my carefully phrased questions:
Helicopters Reply from Science Olympiad
Inbox
x


no-reply@soinc.org via tourmaline.tilted.net
11/13/11

to me
Yes, teams with tethers for their helicopters will be in tier 2.

The original question is included for your records; there is no need to
respond unless you feel there is an error.
=========================================================
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

The rule state that "competitors must not steer the helicopter during
flight". Does this put teams that use tethers in second tier, as specified by
5. Scoring d. since they are controlling their helicopter from reaching the
roof/obstacles?

Helicopters

(section: 4 / paragraph: m / sub-paragraph: / line: 1)

no-reply@soinc.org via tourmaline.tilted.net
11/13/11

to me
Correction to the last reply, teams with tethers for their helicopters will
be ranked behind all other teams which is essentially the same as tier 2 even
though it is not listed as tier 2 in the rules.


no-reply@soinc.org via tourmaline.tilted.net
11/13/11

to me
Tethers are not allowed for first tier flights. The printed rules supersede
any training materials or information other than official SO clarifications
or posted FAQs.

The original question is included for your records; there is no need to
respond unless you feel there is an error.
=========================================================
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

If a tether is allowed on a first tier helicopter, may the competitor be
holding onto a spool containing the tether, controlling the amount of string
being released, or must the tether be a one-length string, touching only the
helicopter and the holding base?
Five months later, I'm still waiting on the FAQ update. Since it does seem like this is a problem that needs to be addressed directly to the wide audience, I ask that everyone ask this as an FAQ so that it does actually become a FREQUENTLY asked question. I would be disappointed if great teams placed behind other teams that tethered but were judged with a helicopter that didn't break the rules (aka, second tier).

As Mr. Chalker has said in a previous post (that I'm too lazy to find), most event supervisors WILL NOT ACCEPT a printed e-mail, since it is so easy to fake. This MUST go on the official FAQs since it has been asked several times; that (IMHO) is enough to warrant a FAQ.

To those with some official standing or contact, please see that my e-mail and the answers and questions get posted on the FAQ.

Thanks for reading.
Silent and Listen are spelled with the same letters
Seven Lakes SLHS Science Olympiad
Retiring my competition career! Off to scold the newbies as a manager!

Locked

Return to “Helicopters C”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest