Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

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NinjaChicken
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by NinjaChicken » January 18th, 2012, 5:29 pm

blazer wrote: At the last invitational I attended (a fairly large one), not one team (including the winner) used ice water.
Idk when your regionals are, but I'm fairly sure that no one has completely finished testing their device for an invitational.
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by JimY » January 18th, 2012, 9:34 pm

chalker7 wrote:
JimY wrote: I'm wondering whether or not the event rule writers realized what they were getting us into, especially for B division.
We did. And actually, this is an interesting comment, most of the issues that were raised before the season were that this event was going to be too simple, not too complicated.
Although I didn't know that B division doesn't have an ice water bonus, what I'm talking about is figuring out what your device does without doing oodles of experiments like the team on page 18 or 19 (however, having a recording temp probe makes the job easier). Our team is taking the design of experiments approach (doing very few experiments that are sufficiently different from each other), then doing multivariable curve fitting to predict what it will do under any set of applicable conditions, including the possibility of adding ice water. I'm more or less forcing this on my students as a means of exposing them to the concepts and methods used. To help convince them, I did less than 10 experiments on a device I built that were sufficiently different from each other, found the best form for a multivariable correlation that fits all experiments very well (R-squared > 0.99), and then ran another test that used different conditions and compared the results to what the correlation predicts. The experiment and correlation were less than 0.3 C different at each minute between 20 and 40 minutes. So, if you know what you're doing, any team can use this approach and drastically reduce work without compromising prediction accuracy. However, what I'm saying is that this approach is well beyond what high school students learn, and thus the need by most teams to do oodles of experiments or find someone that can help you make the job easier. Then a nice side benefit of our approach is that we can compare the performance of any device to mine with just one randomly chosen experiment. Corollary is that you can make modifications on a device that already has a correlation developed and do one random test and compare to the original device. If it makes it better for that one experiment, it may make it better for all experiments. At least that's what we think right now. This allows you to take a concept that improves a device and push it.

Are any teams out there doing anything like what we're doing regarding design of experiments and multivariable curve fitting?

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by HatchHighSchool » January 19th, 2012, 7:31 am

Hi I'm sorry if this has already been answered but is hot glue an ok method of fastening our device?

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by OldSpice » January 19th, 2012, 8:45 am

HatchHighSchool wrote:Hi I'm sorry if this has already been answered but is hot glue an ok method of fastening our device?
As far as I know, any kind of adhesive is okay as long as you aren't obviously using it as an insulator.
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by sciencegeek999 » January 19th, 2012, 3:14 pm

Are we allowed to use sand for insulation?
It's granular but it's not organic...
At my school, this is one of the most asked questions for Keep the Heat.

Oh yeah, I also have a suggestion.
Since there's no image gallery for Keep the Heat/Termodynamics, I think that just for now (until they make a gallery for it) we should upload the pics into the egg-o-naut gallery or Junkyard Challenge. Is this allowed?
Last edited by sciencegeek999 on January 19th, 2012, 3:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by quizbowl » January 19th, 2012, 3:16 pm

sciencegeek999 wrote:Are we allowed to use sand for insulation?
It's granular but it's not organic...
At my school, this is one of the most asked questions for Keep the Heat.
Sand is an inorganic substance, hence it is prohibited.
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by sciencegeek999 » January 19th, 2012, 3:18 pm

quizbowl wrote:
sciencegeek999 wrote:Are we allowed to use sand for insulation?
It's granular but it's not organic...
At my school, this is one of the most asked questions for Keep the Heat.
Sand is an inorganic substance, hence it is prohibited.
Thanks!

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by hmcginny » January 19th, 2012, 6:48 pm

If you have any other questions about materials, http://soinc.org/node/838 has a general outline of what is considered an "organic granular material". It should answer most of the questions that are asked here about which materials are allowed.
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by chalker » January 19th, 2012, 8:07 pm

JimY wrote:
Although I didn't know that B division doesn't have an ice water bonus, ......... At least that's what we think right now. This allows you to take a concept that improves a device and push it.
When we are creating rules, we often take an overall look at them and try to satisfy 2 key things (amongst many):
1. Is the event approachable for virtually any team such that they'll get some reasonable results and hopefully learn something in the process.
2. Are the rules 'complex' enough to challenge the best teams and provide a way to differentiate the top contenders at a national level such that we don't have a lot of ties.

Based upon what I've hearing from you (and other postings on this forum), I think we've met the mark on both aspects for this event this year. Not that there isn't room for improvement though.......we are always open to suggestions for rules changes for next year and actually will be starting the internal discussion process in the next month or so.

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by JSGandora » January 20th, 2012, 12:40 pm

chalker wrote:Not that there isn't room for improvement though.......we are always open to suggestions for rules changes for next year and actually will be starting the internal discussion process in the next month or so.
Is this a typo? Or am I just interpreting it wrong?

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