Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

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Cheesy Pie
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by Cheesy Pie » February 2nd, 2013, 3:16 pm

bigjoe wrote:The lid (or top of the box) must be within 2.5 cm of the beaker.
Crud! We have some plastic thing attached to the top of our device... which we tested. :o :o :o
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by 135scioly » February 2nd, 2013, 3:25 pm

Cheesy Pie wrote:
bigjoe wrote:The lid (or top of the box) must be within 2.5 cm of the beaker.
Crud! We have some plastic thing attached to the top of our device... which we tested. :o :o :o
Aw... Hope you don't have to rebuild your whole device. We had to do that cause ours was too big and it sucks, though retesting all over again will be hard! :( Anyway, good luck with your device, :) maybe you can just take off the plastic thing?
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by ramcoach » February 2nd, 2013, 7:17 pm

135scioly wrote:Are we allowed to bring a screwdriver because we are using a nail to close it, and we need a screwdriver to open it. It's very effective in insulation, but I don't know if it's allowed, though it doesn't seem to go against the rules... Should I submit a clarification?
That's a good question. I've seen boxes with hinges and clasps that students locked down upon closing. Are you just using the screwdriver to pry the top open at the end? I don't see why you couldn't. Our team members used a pencil last year at States to help pop the clasp open at the end.

And technically, the testing is done when the final temperature is read off the device, and you wouldn't be opening it until after that point, correct? So it shouldn't matter what you do to it - open it with a screwdriver, cut it open with a hacksaw, whatever.

Now if it took specialized tools to close it, that might be a different matter.

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by ramcoach » February 2nd, 2013, 7:36 pm

harryk wrote:Technically speaking cotton that is sold as batting, or for use in upholstery would not be allowed, but cotton balls would be since they are sold for a completely different purpose. Though they are essentially the same thing. So if you want to use cotton, get cotton balls.

Note that my box is filled only with cotton balls and I've never had any problems
Is anyone else finding the SOINC FAQ responses to what is considered commercial insulation a bit...arbitrary? I have yet to find a single place that describes drywall as being used for its insulating qualities (and it has a very low R-value). Nobody insulates with drywall. Cotton balls are OK, but not cotton batting? What about surgical cotton (very similar to batting but the seller does not "intend" for it to be used to retain heat)? Wood is allowed, yet sawdust was used as a commercial insulator in the days before electricity to keep ice from melting. Can sawdust be used? Aluminum foil and certain plastic wraps are used as a food wrap to hold heat in - are they allowed or not?

Has anyone gone to any invitationals or competitions and been told that one of their materials was in violation?

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by 135scioly » February 2nd, 2013, 8:57 pm

ramcoach wrote:
135scioly wrote:Are we allowed to bring a screwdriver because we are using a nail to close it, and we need a screwdriver to open it. It's very effective in insulation, but I don't know if it's allowed, though it doesn't seem to go against the rules... Should I submit a clarification?
That's a good question. I've seen boxes with hinges and clasps that students locked down upon closing. Are you just using the screwdriver to pry the top open at the end? I don't see why you couldn't. Our team members used a pencil last year at States to help pop the clasp open at the end.

And technically, the testing is done when the final temperature is read off the device, and you wouldn't be opening it until after that point, correct? So it shouldn't matter what you do to it - open it with a screwdriver, cut it open with a hacksaw, whatever.

Now if it took specialized tools to close it, that might be a different matter.
Well actually, we do use it to close the screw as well, so it is used right when the beaker is put in, and after the beaker is taken out, but not as a part of the device technically.
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by harryk » February 3rd, 2013, 6:22 am

ramcoach wrote:
harryk wrote:Technically speaking cotton that is sold as batting, or for use in upholstery would not be allowed, but cotton balls would be since they are sold for a completely different purpose. Though they are essentially the same thing. So if you want to use cotton, get cotton balls.

Note that my box is filled only with cotton balls and I've never had any problems
Is anyone else finding the SOINC FAQ responses to what is considered commercial insulation a bit...arbitrary? I have yet to find a single place that describes drywall as being used for its insulating qualities (and it has a very low R-value). Nobody insulates with drywall. Cotton balls are OK, but not cotton batting? What about surgical cotton (very similar to batting but the seller does not "intend" for it to be used to retain heat)? Wood is allowed, yet sawdust was used as a commercial insulator in the days before electricity to keep ice from melting. Can sawdust be used? Aluminum foil and certain plastic wraps are used as a food wrap to hold heat in - are they allowed or not?

Has anyone gone to any invitationals or competitions and been told that one of their materials was in violation?
Rather than trying to make an exact list of what is and what isn't allowed, you need to think about the purpose and spirit of the rule. The "No commercial insulation allowed" rule is there to mainly prohibit people from going to home depot and buying very efficient house insulation or finding a thermos or insulated pot. This event is meant to be based around what most would consider house-hold materials. So if it fits within that category you will probably be fine. Lastly, this will all end up in the hands of the event supervisor, and as you participate in SO long enough you will learn that there is little guaranteed consistency between different event supervisors. Nevertheless, I find that most event supervisors are reluctant to ever DQ someone or bump them down a tier, simply because they don't feel safe doing so unless they see an explicit rules violation. And remember that you can always submit an official protest if you feel the event supervisor made an unfair judgement.
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by ychen428 » February 3rd, 2013, 10:05 pm

I was wondering the same thing.
The rules say that wool batting is prohibited. But since other forms of cotton are allowed, are other forms of wool allows, say wool felt?
And cork is allowed right? I saw other schools use it last year, but just wanted to make sure.

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by 135scioly » February 4th, 2013, 4:19 am

We are using cotton balls, which I know many teams are, and that isn't prohibited, so I don't think wool felt would be. Except it could be considered a form of insulation whereas cotton balls are never used for insulation. Cork is most likely allowed, but wool felt may not be, though could always submit a clarification if you really need to know.
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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by katymae2184 » February 5th, 2013, 12:39 pm

Is perlite allowed to be used as an insulating material?

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Re: Keep the Heat B/Thermodynamics C

Post by inthewoods » February 5th, 2013, 1:22 pm

The rules define the written portion of the test to be temp conversions, definitions of heat units, thermal conductivity, heat capacity, specific heat, the laws and history of thermo, and thermo processes. How much of this is actually chemistry related and do the supervisors have the liberty to include chemistry on the test?

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