Forensics C

Locked
allisonc524
Member
Member
Posts: 7
Joined: February 7th, 2013, 6:49 pm
Division: C
State: NM
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Forensics C

Post by allisonc524 »

carliesmith123 wrote:I'm new at this event and I was wondering what I can do to prepare for it? Notes, tests etc.
The forensics wiki is a good place to start: http://scioly.org/wiki/index.php/Forensics I would suggest making yourself flow charts for powder, fiber, and polymer identification. To identify fibers, use the burn test. Don't rely on burn test for polymers, though, because the supervisors may or may not provide burn test results. Instead, use densities. You're allowed one note sheet front and back, so use space wisely. You probably also want to read a little bit about mass spectra.http://www.chemguide.co.uk/analysis/mas ... ments.html Believe it or not, it WILL show up. This answer gives you a pretty good starting point:
salcedam wrote: What I would recommend is starting right off the bat with learning how to identify the powders since that's a major chunk of the test and subsequently, one of the more important parts of it. For powders, you should have some sort of flowchart in place so as you can sequentially go through different tests (such as solubility, flame colors, HCl reactions, etc.) until you can identify it. For example, to identify boric acid, the only test you need to do for that is to do a flame test because boric acid makes a green flame. LiCl gives off a red flame and KCl gives off a purple flame. Those are the only three powders that will give those distinctive colors. The others will either give you a yellow, orange-ish, or no flame color at all. That's when you need to continue with the next step which would be to determine solubility and so on and so forth.

Then once you have powders down or at least have an idea of how to do them, move to the fibers and plastics and learning to identify those using burn tests (for the fibers in particular since they usually won't allow burn tests for plastics). For plastics, you identify them using densities so you need a flowchart just like for the powders of what to do when one plastic sinks in one solution. So let's say you have a plastic that sinks in water. You know that it must have a higher density so then you test the density using salt water. Different competitions will give different concentrations so you should know the densities of the various concentrations of salt water so that when they give you, let's say, a 10% salt solution and it sinks, you know that it must have a density higher than 1.074 g/mL since that's the density of a 10% salt solution. Then you should test the plastic using corn syrup or some high density liquid to see if it floats or sinks. If it sinks in corn syrup, it has to be PVC (according to the flowchart I've made) and if it floats, it's PETE.

So basically, you need to research flowcharts on powders and plastics as well as learn specific characteristics of fibers such as how they react when burned and how they look. From powders, fibers, and plastics, you move on to everything else. I'd focus less on glass and dirt/tire tracks and such since that's mostly matching. Most tests that I've come across focus mainly on blood, fingerprints, reading mass spec, and the occasional entomology question. When studying those things, you don't need to get too in-depth, but you should go past the surface a little bit. I've had tests where they ask how fingerprints are formed, how many ridges a fingerprint has, things besides matching and identifying fingerprint types. Hope that helps somewhat!
Events:
Forensics: Invitationals: 4th State: 1st
Forestry: Invitationals: 4th State: (unable to compete) My partner made 7th though!
User avatar
pikachu4919
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 716
Joined: December 7th, 2012, 2:30 pm
Division: Grad
State: IN
Pronouns: She/Her/Hers
Has thanked: 89 times
Been thanked: 167 times

Re: Forensics C

Post by pikachu4919 »

allisonc524 wrote:
carliesmith123 wrote:I'm new at this event and I was wondering what I can do to prepare for it? Notes, tests etc.
The forensics wiki is a good place to start: http://scioly.org/wiki/index.php/Forensics I would suggest making yourself flow charts for powder, fiber, and polymer identification. To identify fibers, use the burn test. Don't rely on burn test for polymers, though, because the supervisors may or may not provide burn test results. Instead, use densities. You're allowed one note sheet front and back, so use space wisely. You probably also want to read a little bit about mass spectra.http://www.chemguide.co.uk/analysis/mas ... ments.html Believe it or not, it WILL show up. This answer gives you a pretty good starting point:
salcedam wrote: What I would recommend is starting right off the bat with learning how to identify the powders since that's a major chunk of the test and subsequently, one of the more important parts of it. For powders, you should have some sort of flowchart in place so as you can sequentially go through different tests (such as solubility, flame colors, HCl reactions, etc.) until you can identify it. For example, to identify boric acid, the only test you need to do for that is to do a flame test because boric acid makes a green flame. LiCl gives off a red flame and KCl gives off a purple flame. Those are the only three powders that will give those distinctive colors. The others will either give you a yellow, orange-ish, or no flame color at all. That's when you need to continue with the next step which would be to determine solubility and so on and so forth.

Then once you have powders down or at least have an idea of how to do them, move to the fibers and plastics and learning to identify those using burn tests (for the fibers in particular since they usually won't allow burn tests for plastics). For plastics, you identify them using densities so you need a flowchart just like for the powders of what to do when one plastic sinks in one solution. So let's say you have a plastic that sinks in water. You know that it must have a higher density so then you test the density using salt water. Different competitions will give different concentrations so you should know the densities of the various concentrations of salt water so that when they give you, let's say, a 10% salt solution and it sinks, you know that it must have a density higher than 1.074 g/mL since that's the density of a 10% salt solution. Then you should test the plastic using corn syrup or some high density liquid to see if it floats or sinks. If it sinks in corn syrup, it has to be PVC (according to the flowchart I've made) and if it floats, it's PETE.

So basically, you need to research flowcharts on powders and plastics as well as learn specific characteristics of fibers such as how they react when burned and how they look. From powders, fibers, and plastics, you move on to everything else. I'd focus less on glass and dirt/tire tracks and such since that's mostly matching. Most tests that I've come across focus mainly on blood, fingerprints, reading mass spec, and the occasional entomology question. When studying those things, you don't need to get too in-depth, but you should go past the surface a little bit. I've had tests where they ask how fingerprints are formed, how many ridges a fingerprint has, things besides matching and identifying fingerprint types. Hope that helps somewhat!
They actually don't allow burn tests for plastics although results from a burn test may be provided by the supervisor. You should definitely make flowcharts for powders and plastics. A flowchart for fibers is more likely optional ... you can actually write down basic ground rules for distinguishing animal, vegetable, and man-made fibers and maybe additional microscope characteristics of each fiber, long/short, how it burns (i.e. odor, residue), and other information and that might be all you need. Same with hairs ... it's actually pretty easy memorizing some of the most basic characteristics of them under the microscope or not. But by all means, if you think you'll need extra flowcharts, then go ahead, just be reminded that you only get one page of notes (front and back).
Carmel HS (IN) '16
Purdue BioE '21? reevaluating my life choices
Nationals 2016 ~ 4th place Forensics


"It is important to draw wisdom from different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale." -Uncle Iroh

About me || Rate my tests!
Opinions expressed on this site are not official; the only place for official rules changes and FAQs is soinc.org.

MY CABBAGES!
User avatar
illusionofconfusion
Member
Member
Posts: 45
Joined: September 18th, 2011, 1:20 pm
Division: C
State: AL
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Forensics C

Post by illusionofconfusion »

I'm having a lot of difficulty differentiating between hair types... any tips?
~illusionofconfusion ;)
User avatar
computergeek3
Member
Member
Posts: 163
Joined: November 10th, 2009, 12:49 pm
Division: Grad
State: PA
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Forensics C

Post by computergeek3 »

illusionofconfusion wrote:I'm having a lot of difficulty differentiating between hair types... any tips?
Microscope helps a lot...burning is also a good method of differentiation, but because you're only (typically) given a small amount of the hair, I say use this sparingly.
If you can't explain it simply, you don't know it well enough. -Albert Einstein

Bayard Rustin Science Olympiad 2010-2014
Pittsburgh Allderdice Assistant Coach
User avatar
pikachu4919
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 716
Joined: December 7th, 2012, 2:30 pm
Division: Grad
State: IN
Pronouns: She/Her/Hers
Has thanked: 89 times
Been thanked: 167 times

Re: Forensics C

Post by pikachu4919 »

computergeek3 wrote:
illusionofconfusion wrote:I'm having a lot of difficulty differentiating between hair types... any tips?
Microscope helps a lot...burning is also a good method of differentiation, but because you're only (typically) given a small amount of the hair, I say use this sparingly.
Or if the microscopes aren't working, then you can attempt other ways ... human hair generally has a larger diameter than most other hairs ... cat and dog hair are both smaller in diameter, but dog hair feels much coarser than cat hair. That's how I can tell, at least.
Carmel HS (IN) '16
Purdue BioE '21? reevaluating my life choices
Nationals 2016 ~ 4th place Forensics


"It is important to draw wisdom from different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale." -Uncle Iroh

About me || Rate my tests!
Opinions expressed on this site are not official; the only place for official rules changes and FAQs is soinc.org.

MY CABBAGES!
User avatar
illusionofconfusion
Member
Member
Posts: 45
Joined: September 18th, 2011, 1:20 pm
Division: C
State: AL
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Forensics C

Post by illusionofconfusion »

pikachu4919 wrote:
computergeek3 wrote:
illusionofconfusion wrote:I'm having a lot of difficulty differentiating between hair types... any tips?
Microscope helps a lot...burning is also a good method of differentiation, but because you're only (typically) given a small amount of the hair, I say use this sparingly.
Or if the microscopes aren't working, then you can attempt other ways ... human hair generally has a larger diameter than most other hairs ... cat and dog hair are both smaller in diameter, but dog hair feels much coarser than cat hair. That's how I can tell, at least.
Oh. I sorta knew that, but they gave us pictures of microscoped hair at competition, and it just blew me away because I had been thinking they'd give us actual hairs and was not prepared for that.. :| How do you tell the difference under a microscope, especially if you don't have another one to compare with?
~illusionofconfusion ;)
User avatar
pikachu4919
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 716
Joined: December 7th, 2012, 2:30 pm
Division: Grad
State: IN
Pronouns: She/Her/Hers
Has thanked: 89 times
Been thanked: 167 times

Re: Forensics C

Post by pikachu4919 »

illusionofconfusion wrote: Oh. I sorta knew that, but they gave us pictures of microscoped hair at competition, and it just blew me away because I had been thinking they'd give us actual hairs and was not prepared for that.. :| How do you tell the difference under a microscope, especially if you don't have another one to compare with?
Oh. Human hair has small scales on its cuticle, and it has a thin, amorphous, and discontinuous medulla. Cat hair is finer, has a palm tree type cuticle, a small diameter, and a segmented medulla that looks kind of like: ||||||||||. Dog hair is coarser to the touch than cat hair and has a thick medulla, and it also has a barrel-like appearance. Horse hair is very coarse and has a mosaic pattern medulla. Bat hair has coronal scales making it somewhat resemble a stack of paper cups, and it has an extremely fine diameter. according to my competition notes, that is. You could research more about hairs if you'd like. You could also try to google search them and try to memorize their appearance under the microscope. That also helps.
Carmel HS (IN) '16
Purdue BioE '21? reevaluating my life choices
Nationals 2016 ~ 4th place Forensics


"It is important to draw wisdom from different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale." -Uncle Iroh

About me || Rate my tests!
Opinions expressed on this site are not official; the only place for official rules changes and FAQs is soinc.org.

MY CABBAGES!
Steelfoam
Member
Member
Posts: 26
Joined: March 10th, 2012, 5:15 pm
Division: C
State: WI
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Forensics C

Post by Steelfoam »

How are polymers run at competition? Do you have to make your own solution of ie. salt water?
2013 State,Nats: Disease (2,31) Dynamic (1,8) Forensics (1,4) Chem Lab (-,35)
(region, state, nats)
2012: Disease (1st, 9th,15th) Exp Des (1st,2nd, 21st) Protein (1st,1st,11th) Dynamic (1st,2nd, 21st) Forensics (1st, 6th, 2nd!!!)
2011 Nats: Crime 8th Exp 9th, Orni 11th, CJAP 18th, Disease 19, Dynamic 20
User avatar
pikachu4919
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 716
Joined: December 7th, 2012, 2:30 pm
Division: Grad
State: IN
Pronouns: She/Her/Hers
Has thanked: 89 times
Been thanked: 167 times

Re: Forensics C

Post by pikachu4919 »

Steelfoam wrote:How are polymers run at competition? Do you have to make your own solution of ie. salt water?
No, they provide the density liquids for you with plastics. Since burn tests aren't allowed on plastics either, the supervisor may provide results from a burn test. Fibers and hair you are allowed to do burn tests and use a microscope, but using burn tests on hair is highly discouraged and is usually a last resort.
Carmel HS (IN) '16
Purdue BioE '21? reevaluating my life choices
Nationals 2016 ~ 4th place Forensics


"It is important to draw wisdom from different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale." -Uncle Iroh

About me || Rate my tests!
Opinions expressed on this site are not official; the only place for official rules changes and FAQs is soinc.org.

MY CABBAGES!
Cedavis6
Member
Member
Posts: 72
Joined: March 27th, 2012, 2:22 pm
Division: Grad
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: Forensics C

Post by Cedavis6 »

pikachu4919 wrote:
thsom wrote:Hey guys, I have two questions. First, How do you continue your powders tests when you don't have any phenolphthalein to test with or alcohol for solubility? I ran into those problems in a test. Second, when referring to the angle of the blood splattering, how do you calculate that and which angle is it referring to (the angle between the opposite side and the hypotenuse or the angle between the adjacent side and the hypotenuse if you are using a right triangle to solve for it)?
First, why are phenolphthalein and alcohol absolutely necessary? The reagents provided will work as long as you know what identifies what. It helps to have a flowchart for the powders as well, making sure that all the steps are actually feasible using what's given and not very time-consuming at competition.
What do each reagents do, then?
EDIT: Ignore the edit.
Locked

Return to “2013 Lab Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests