Elastic Launched Glider C

retired1
Member
Member
Posts: 673
Joined: July 25th, 2012, 5:04 pm
Division: Grad
State: FL

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby retired1 » May 25th, 2013, 3:36 pm

I do not like the idea of predicting the time. Every site is enough different to have an effect. The air conditioner coming on and off happens at a number of meets and is a killer for most if not all flight events even with out predictions and is terrible with predictions..
Wingspan is the only logical limit in my book and most bonuses favor the schools with long long experience in the event or similar events. It really favors teams with experienced coaches in flight events. Students may make the final design and hopefully build their own stuff, but being pointed in the right direction by a great coach is a major help when you get into bonuses.

retired1
Member
Member
Posts: 673
Joined: July 25th, 2012, 5:04 pm
Division: Grad
State: FL

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby retired1 » May 25th, 2013, 3:44 pm

Height may work for nationals, but regional and many state events do not have the capability of accurately measuring attained height. I can hear the protests now. I am not in love with limiting the rubber either. Our teams have a terrible time getting into a bldg with a 20' ceiling, let alone a 30 or 35 one, so how do you practice for that?

erikb
Member
Member
Posts: 88
Joined: January 31st, 2013, 2:04 pm
Division: C
State: CO

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby erikb » May 25th, 2013, 8:44 pm

First off a coach needs to know nothing about an event. I never heard of catapult gliders until it was a trial event last year and our team did not participate

Next, a coaches job is to find the resources for his kids. I drove 3 kids 200+ miles once or twice a month to meet with the Ama guys.

Finally, all a coach needs to know is what are reasonable goals for the event. If a coach did his job the kids know everything they need to compete.

All I have to do is figure out where they are and set goals for them to meet. Reasonable and obtainable goals. If you get the kids competing against themselves they don't compair themselves to everyone else. By doing so you eliminate two killers of motivation, too far behind or too far ahead. Next thing you know they are improving at a very rapid pace. Yes, it is not perfect. You can have a kid win nationals yet still be upset because he did not meet his goal.

But if you set goals to beat a team or win a specific medal those are moving targets. Impossible to hit most times and daunting tasks. They are by design doomed to failure

So I don't buy into this whole idea of unfair advantage due to coaches knowledge. It's the kids that win all a coach can do is give them the best possible oppertunity to do so.
--
Poudre High School, Fort Collins CO.

calgoddard
Member
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: February 25th, 2007, 9:54 pm

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby calgoddard » May 26th, 2013, 4:10 am

I have been to almost 30 regional, state and national SciOly competitions.

2014 will only be the 2nd year for Elastic Launched Glider (ELG) as an official event. Usually only minor changes in the rules of a SciOly building event are made after an event has only been run for one year. They are typically limited to correcting problems in the rules used the previous year and/or possibly introducing a slight change to prevent handing down devices from one team to the next. On rare occasions a bonus is introduced, e.g. 20% flight time bonus for a pusher in Wright Stuff or a triple bonus for a Chinook in Helicopters.

Leave the ELG rules alone with the possible exception of increasing the max wingspan to 35 cm or 40 cm to encourage further experimentation. I am not sure that slightly larger catapult gliders would fly longer, but I suspect that would be true. Thus teams using last year's gliders would potentially be penalizing themselves. There were no major problems with the 2013 ELG rules that I am aware of.

Having an ELG score component based on the accuracy of predicted flight time is not a good idea for two reasons. First, the goal of any indoor free flight event should be the longest flight duration (leaving aside the idea of SciOly overall: to get students excited about science and learning physics, engineering, etc.). Second, it is a big burden on event supervisors to have to perform fancy calculations accurately when they have many teams competiting.

ELG was a piece of cake to score this year. Gravity Vehicle was a nightmare.

If you looked at the results of hundreds of ELG competitions this year you would find that the teams that won generally built the most number of gliders and practiced the most. I like the idea of scoring the best 2 out of 5 official flights as it removes unlucky flights, such a when the glider hits a beam because the competitor is launching in a different ceiling height for the first time.

calgoddard
Member
Member
Posts: 239
Joined: February 25th, 2007, 9:54 pm

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby calgoddard » May 26th, 2013, 8:01 am

For the 2014 ELG rules, I suggest the following correction to the 2013 ELG rules, as noted on the Nationals web site:

4.f. should read "A self-check inspection station may be made available to competitors for checking their glider and launch handle [dimensions] CONFIGURATION FOR SAFETY prior to being checked by the officials."

erikb
Member
Member
Posts: 88
Joined: January 31st, 2013, 2:04 pm
Division: C
State: CO

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby erikb » May 26th, 2013, 10:31 am


Leave the ELG rules alone with the possible exception of increasing the max wingspan to 35 cm or 40 cm to encourage further experimentation. I am not sure that slightly larger catapult gliders would fly longer, but I suspect that would be true.
There would be zero incentive for a team to change wingspan. It is not true that longer wings put up better times. The national record holder is a standard catapult in both categories and at many ama events people fly standard in the unlimited and win.

It is much harder to build a longer wingspan to compete with the lighter ones.

The reason real gliders have very long wings is they have to carry a dense water filled bag that needs to be spread out over a larger lift surface.
If you looked at the results of hundreds of ELG competitions this year you would find that the teams that won generally built the most number of gliders and practiced the most. I like the idea of scoring the best 2 out of 5 official flights as it removes unlucky flights, such a when the glider hits a beam because the competitor is launching in a different ceiling height for the first time.
You are overlooking one important factor. What the gliders are made of. Even within kits the potential of a glider varies greatly because the way the wood balances out will effect how well it glides.

So by default you have a disparity between potentials in the glider event. Even between the teams of the same skill range.

So right now if you have a good glider their is little incentive to push beyond good enough to win.
--
Poudre High School, Fort Collins CO.

erikb
Member
Member
Posts: 88
Joined: January 31st, 2013, 2:04 pm
Division: C
State: CO

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby erikb » May 26th, 2013, 10:58 am

Proposed bonus for gliders

Six official flights four of them will be scored. Within those six official flights an optional flight can be utilized to score the bonus. (4 flights + bonus) the bonus will consist of an exact time flight. The exact time will not be known before the competition and released the day of. Possible making gliders a impound event.

The exact time will be a range determined by an estimated height of the event, times a factor of .4 to .6. Example of a 20 foot ceiling time range would be 8 to 12 seconds. 30 foot 12 to 18 seconds

So scoring would be
(Flight 1 + flight 2 + flight 3 + flight 4) + bonus

Bonus would be calculated at
regionals as: 10 - abs(exact time - flight time)
State as: 10 - abs(exact time - flight time)
Nationals as: 10 - (abs(exact time - flight time) x 5)

With zero being the lowest bonus possible.

If this bonus is accepted then I will try and talk someone into publishing a paper that will describe all the math needed to predict times taking into account the differences in air density. It appears that it is something that with the right guidance a team can do.
--
Poudre High School, Fort Collins CO.

musicalcoconut
Member
Member
Posts: 23
Joined: April 27th, 2013, 5:13 pm
Division: Grad
State: MN

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby musicalcoconut » May 26th, 2013, 12:49 pm

I don't really see a reason for making teams try to match an exact time. Unlike in gravity vehicle, for example, where it works to have teams try to estimate the time, gliders are much more variable and sensitive to subtle environmental changes. Having to match an exact time would increase the advantage of the home team at nationals, because humidity and such would have a significant impact on the exact time. Also, complicating how to calculate scores would increase the chances of scoring errors. I think a few minor changes to the event would be ok but overall the event is fine the way it is.
2014 Graduate of Mounds View High School
National Medalist in Elastic Launched Glider (2013) and Dynamic Planet (2014)

elg4
Member
Member
Posts: 4
Joined: May 23rd, 2013, 6:15 pm
Division: C
State: IN

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby elg4 » May 26th, 2013, 2:15 pm

I don't really see a reason for making teams try to match an exact time. Unlike in gravity vehicle, for example, where it works to have teams try to estimate the time, gliders are much more variable and sensitive to subtle environmental changes. Having to match an exact time would increase the advantage of the home team at nationals, because humidity and such would have a significant impact on the exact time. Also, complicating how to calculate scores would increase the chances of scoring errors. I think a few minor changes to the event would be ok but overall the event is fine the way it is.
I agree. The event is meant to test the knowledge of gliders and ability to construct/fly said gliders which, in my opinion, the existing scoring and rules are able to do effectively. The more one knows about the event, the more successfully one can trim under any conditions. I do think that some luck is involved but, once you think about it, what event doesn't have some dependence on luck (especially building events)? Ideally, the teams who are not as lucky have the knowledge to come out with the placing they deserve. If teams are unlucky but have sufficient knowledge, they can work with what they are dealt and still receive a satisfactory placing.

A suggestion to help buffer this “luck factor” is to have a scenario-based written test. This would include questions mentioning the vocabulary used by professional aviation competitors, as well as what I like to call “what-if” questions. For example “What if your glider does not transition well and dives after the peak of the launch?” Where an example answer would be “Decrease your launch angle or increase the initial roll angle of the glider.”

Additionally, it has been mentioned that even winning nationals is not enough if you do not achieve your personal goal. I disagree. This may be the case in AMA competitions or others like it where flying a glider or helicopter is your only goal, but scioly is different. The vast majority of competitors have multiple events, and if one of your events is doing well enough to win nationals, even without achieving a personal goal, then that should be sufficient. The only case where I can see that point as being valid is if an individual was able to earn 1st in every event he/she participated in. Then, and only then, can I see a solid point where winning is not enough because you did not achieve your goal.
Last edited by elg4 on May 26th, 2013, 3:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

retired1
Member
Member
Posts: 673
Joined: July 25th, 2012, 5:04 pm
Division: Grad
State: FL

Re: Elastic Launched Glider C

Postby retired1 » May 26th, 2013, 2:17 pm

An experienced coach is not an unfair advantage, but it is certainly a significant advantage for kids willing to work at this event.
Changing wingspan to smaller would force all teams to remake their glider. Increasing it would not force a remake.
More flights with more counting flights would be fine. Adding bonuses is not a good idea!


Return to “2013 Build Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest