Robot Arm C

iwonder
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby iwonder » May 19th, 2013, 8:56 pm

To finish, 7b states that you only receive points at the end of the run. 7e also says this.
as my regionals supervisor so elegantly put it after a team tried that, "I look at the field, and I see all the things in buckets. Where is this north zone point at the end of the run?" In this case the answer is: it's not there, it was moved to the bucket, scored by the small arm under Jay's control.
With all due respect to your regionals supervisor it would seem like the folks at nationals think otherwise. Also, by that definition it is impossible for something to 'previously' have received points(since points are only given at the end of the run), thus rendering the rules about the height task previously receiving points invalid.
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby plaid suit guy2 » May 19th, 2013, 9:05 pm

We took "previously" as having been responsible for some other point that is extant upon completion of the run (ie.: one of the pencils in a box, or things like that.) In fact that was the only reason we decided not to have a balloon raise the ball to the ceiling, because the ball would be moved into the north zone by the balloon, and then be lifted a good 6 metres up.

I'll also add that whenever the bridge is balanced, vg=0, ALWAYS. This is the definition of a balanced bridge.
Last edited by plaid suit guy2 on May 19th, 2013, 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nationals 2012:
Sound of Music: 8th

Nationals 2013:
Remote Sensing: 1st
ELG: 1st
MagLev: 6th

State 2014:
Boomi: 1st (scored 1824)
Circuits: 1st
Compound: 3rd
Malgev: 1st
MP: 2nd

total gold: 18
total silver: 10
total bronze: 5
6th: 1
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mrsteven
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby mrsteven » May 19th, 2013, 9:11 pm

We took "previously" as having been responsible for some other point that is extant upon completion of the run (ie.: one of the pencils in a box, or things like that.) In fact that was the only reason we decided not to have a balloon raise the ball to the ceiling, because the ball would be moved into the north zone by the balloon, and then be lifted a good 6 metres up.
well we see "previously" meaning different things, and in the end it was decided as being legal by jander14indoor, who had more than his fair share of words written into the rules.
And the whole balloon thing wouldnt come to a realistic stable equilibrium as required by the rules (cant site the specific one without rules by me)
On that note, Mr. Anderson, I saw that there was a team trying to USE a balloon, but then wasnt in the 1 meter height limit, stumbled around for an hour and cut one of them out. If they had time/skill to have actually hoisted up the pingpong ball with the balloon, did they give you a satisfactory rationalization to USE it?
I should have introduced myself, but you seemed busy with actually competing persons, but I was there for the majority of the robot arm day

Sorry, I'm adding an edit onto this post to talk about another point of the post before describing the run from plaid guy. The rules say that the part of the arm used to raise AKA a motor, must be used to score a point. Not that the motor itself has to ever touch the ball. So the motor used to turn the "small arm" into the northern zone WAS the same motor used on the "big arm" (which isnt really an arm at all) since the base motor was disengaged and the height task motor was engaged.
Thus, the "large arm" was part of the system used to score the point, thus scoring, itself, a point.
Last edited by mrsteven on May 19th, 2013, 9:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2011 Helicopters State Runner-up
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2013 Robot Arm State Champion

iwonder
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby iwonder » May 19th, 2013, 9:15 pm

Question. When was a tethered balloon ruled out? I can see putting a ball on the balloon, shoving the balloon towards the north zone, letting it cross in to score a point, and then just rising up till it reaches the tether height.
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby Jdogg » May 19th, 2013, 9:16 pm

Yeah, winning team had a score of 100.12. <SNIP>
I wasn't going to give that level of details without permission, but since you posted it, I can confirm that was the top score.
<SNIP>ok, our team (3rd place) should have had 95.2 points. I'll probably get corrected at some point
No, you calculated it right. That was the third place score.

In case folks don't have pictures, I have pictures of all the devices taken during check in, but won't post unless requested by the team.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI
You can post pictures of my arm online if you want to. I liked the picture of Ward Melville's arm last year. I don't like being secret about my stuff, cause in the end it comes down to how much time you've spent with it and how much effort you put into your device.
Jdogg, how did your raising arm score 1 point before it lifted the ball?
7d) "...The part of the arm used to raise the ping-pong ball must have previously been used to score at least one point..."
also, two parts of the arm were used to raise the ball
Yeah, So I think Iwonder and Hmcginny have covered the how it scored 1 point. Plus every part of the arm used to raise the pingpong ball scored at least 1 point during the run, or you can say the entire device is my arm. Plus, I would say nobody would score a point with the height task because by your definition I would say that you could only use 1 motor to raise the pingpong ball. Although these are only my opinion's, and believe that many other people have agreed with this interpretation. I know Mr.Steven had the same principal employed on his arm as well.
JDogg, that's amazing. We used an Xbox remote for our arm but if we were to do it again, I can see how the master slave system is much better and easier.
Thanks, It's a lot of effort but really easy to use when your done. Though we had some serious controls on our control box that allowed us to control a few other things. For example changing the wrist up/down motion of the arm, locking the shoulder, turning of the base rotation, turning on the height task, and a few other controls that allowed our arm to have a easier time picking up the objects on the edge of the arena.
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olympiaddict
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby olympiaddict » May 19th, 2013, 9:18 pm

I think that despite the many varied interpretations of the rules regarding when the points are scored, Jdogg's arm still was within the rules and clarifications. The extensive discussions and clarifications that have been brought up in the past few months have logically led to these conclusions and while I myself did not feel absolutely 100% certain that this was within the spirit of the rules and so chose to take no risk and choose a different route, I applaud Jdogg's work and success, and feel that he did operate within the scope of the rules. Furthermore, I think that if the national event supervisor, who wrote the rules and therefore understands them on a fundamental and particular level, and who also was involved in clarifying and discussing these rules so as to provide assistance in understanding equally to all competing teams, feels this way, then it can be accepted as fair and completely genuine, whether or not one's individual original interpretation or final design was the same, despite my own team's height bonus not using this interpretation.

Also, I'll give permission to post Ward Melville's picture from this year.
Last edited by olympiaddict on May 19th, 2013, 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jdogg
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby Jdogg » May 19th, 2013, 9:19 pm

Question. When was a tethered balloon ruled out? I can see putting a ball on the balloon, shoving the balloon towards the north zone, letting it cross in to score a point, and then just rising up till it reaches the tether height.
Well, I can think of two things. First the ballon starts with positive gauge pressure, second the ballon would have to score a point with it's buoyancy. You would be allowed to have the ballon raise the ping pong ball into the north zone, but then you would have to bring the pingpong back down and touch it to the floor inorder to do your height task. Otherwise the height task wouldn't be a final distinct action.
Harriton Class of 2013
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Assistant Coach of State College High School

iwonder
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby iwonder » May 19th, 2013, 9:22 pm

Ahh, that makes sense... but hey, it was worth a shot :D

Also, did you happen to have some other rotation actuator in your base to allow you to pick up the final pencil and pvc? We never got around to it, but our servo just didn't have the range for it...
'If you're the smartest person in the room, you're in the wrong room' - Unknown

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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby Jdogg » May 19th, 2013, 9:25 pm

I think that despite the many varied interpretations of the rules regarding when the points are scored, Jdogg's arm still was within the rules and clarifications. The extensive discussions and clarifications that have been brought up in the past few months have logically led to these conclusions and while I myself did not feel absolutely 100% certain that this was within the spirit of the rules and so chose to take no risk and choose a different route, I applaud Jdogg's work and success, and feel that he did operate within the scope of the rules. Furthermore, I think that if the national event supervisor, who wrote the rules and therefore understands them on a fundamental and particular level, and who also was involved in clarifying and discussing these rules so as to provide assistance in understanding equally to all competing teams, feels this way, then it can be accepted as fair and completely genuine, whether or not one's individual original interpretation or final design was the same, despite my own team's height bonus not using this interpretation.
I seriously didn't want to start a argument. I just wanted others to see my robot arm, I felt the same way last year when I saw Ward Melville's arm. I just wanted to see their arm and how they constructed it. That's why I decided to share my robot arm's run online.
Thank you very much, I spent countless hours building every component. The tape measure device has been a work in progress since January and my arm was finished in December. So I got a lot of time to perfect my robot and get to know it really well. Sort of saved me at states, when my robot arm had a malfunction (my fault, I tripped on the connection cable) making my arm punch the ground and snap the front of the arm clean off. I was able to reattach it within the 3 minutes practice time and still get a perfect run off, even with a still half broken arm :).
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Assistant Coach of State College High School

Jdogg
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Re: Robot Arm C

Postby Jdogg » May 19th, 2013, 9:28 pm

Ahh, that makes sense... but hey, it was worth a shot :D

Also, did you happen to have some other rotation actuator in your base to allow you to pick up the final pencil and pvc? We never got around to it, but our servo just didn't have the range for it...
I actually had a winch servo in the base of my robot. It allows me to rotate the arm 3.5 times (if my cables permitted me to). Plus I had a wrist rotate and a up down wrist rotate. This allowed me to get the claw perpendicular and also grab each of the corner objects very easily. Plus the video doesn't show it, but my partner just pulled a block out from the control box to the left, allowing it to push the tape measure device off the back of the robot (in rails, so it doesn't touch the ground). Otherwise I wouldn't have the space to rotate the arm.
Harriton Class of 2013
Vice-Deputy of Avionics and Control for Lunar Lion
Assistant Coach of State College High School


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