Ohio 2013

MMeteorite1
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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby MMeteorite1 » February 7th, 2013, 5:32 am

chalker wrote:
Orange714 wrote:We were only told "Monday" does that mean the coming Monday? The monday a week from now? Sorry for asking, but we're quite impatient to get them XD Thanks!



Who told you Monday and what specifically was it in relation to? If you didn't pick them up on Saturday there no way they could have been shipped on Sunday such that you'd receive them today.




So why is it, regional and state tests are not released? Always has perplexed me.

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Ohio 2013 Why are Regional and State tests never returned

Postby MMeteorite1 » February 7th, 2013, 5:53 am

I had a hardy debate after regionals last year with one of the Directors at our regional (won't mention which one). Though he agreed that he, as a student particiapant, learned a great deal from mistakes made at invitationals, he said the upper level directors "believe that returning the tests is antithetical to the learning process -- in that if you are studying to ace a test, you are not learning the subject as well as you should be." The problems and flaws with that position are many.
1. You're never taking the same test, this isn't the PSAT (which by the way at least tell you which sections you did better or worse on)
2. Anyone every heard of learning from your mistakes?
3. How infrequently, through our entire educational process, K thru college, do "educators" not return tests and/or graded work? Answer, other than standardize tests, NEVER! Why is that? Because it provides feedback and helps redirect your energies toward weak areas as well as validating what you thought to be correct.
4 Though I have yet to enter, I believe it is common practice in the business world to perform perfomance appraisals. I don't think they just say, "well Bob, your the 12th best guy on the assemble line, you need to do better" and then walk you to the door. Bob thought he was doing a good job, and wants to get better. If the boss told Bob, "Bob, your really solid on the nuts and bolts, but moving the widgit from A to B needs some work" then Bob has a better chance at performing better, DO YA THINK! Give it some thought. If you can honestly say, you have never found value in reviewing an exam, then you are a better man or woman than me. OUT

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Re: Ohio 2013 Why are Regional and State tests never returne

Postby kentuckyfan1001 » February 7th, 2013, 6:50 am

Though the regional supervisor may have framed it that way, I believe the real reason is because they don't want teams questioning the final scores of events. At invitationals, often you can find mistakes in grading tests and whatnot. Though you may get angry and maybe even cheated out of a medal, you don't move on to states as a result of an invitational. That's why it doesn't matter too much at invitationals. At a regional, however, the stakes are high - one arbitration could make the difference between a team making it and not. If they gave the tests back to each team, what would happen is every team that didn't make states who was close to making it would try to arbitrate to get their scores lower. Not returning the tests in a sense keeps the integrity of the regional.

MMeteorite1 wrote:I had a hardy debate after regionals last year with one of the Directors at our regional (won't mention which one). Though he agreed that he, as a student particiapant, learned a great deal from mistakes made at invitationals, he said the upper level directors "believe that returning the tests is antithetical to the learning process -- in that if you are studying to ace a test, you are not learning the subject as well as you should be." The problems and flaws with that position are many.
1. You're never taking the same test, this isn't the PSAT (which by the way at least tell you which sections you did better or worse on)
2. Anyone every heard of learning from your mistakes?
3. How infrequently, through our entire educational process, K thru college, do "educators" not return tests and/or graded work? Answer, other than standardize tests, NEVER! Why is that? Because it provides feedback and helps redirect your energies toward weak areas as well as validating what you thought to be correct.
4 Though I have yet to enter, I believe it is common practice in the business world to perform perfomance appraisals. I don't think they just say, "well Bob, your the 12th best guy on the assemble line, you need to do better" and then walk you to the door. Bob thought he was doing a good job, and wants to get better. If the boss told Bob, "Bob, your really solid on the nuts and bolts, but moving the widgit from A to B needs some work" then Bob has a better chance at performing better, DO YA THINK! Give it some thought. If you can honestly say, you have never found value in reviewing an exam, then you are a better man or woman than me. OUT
-JZ Solon '12, Penn '16
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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby Skink » February 7th, 2013, 7:05 am

I suspect this is the policy in most places. In IL, another SO-heavy State, we do not give back Regional tests. In fact, part of the price of an invitational is the understanding that you get the tests back afterwards. The only time I have ever seen a Regional test go back was when a coach was new and did not know any better. She gave out her Circuit Lab test and really regretted doing so later. The reasoning above is, I believe, the primary reason such policies are in place. There are no stakes at invitational tournaments. At Regionals, State bids are at stake. At State, it's even truer yet.

If your concern truly is wanting to learn from your mistakes, then you take those mistakes with you. If it's an event where you get a cheat sheet or binder, dedicate a small space to writing things you need to study. If not, bank it in your head and write it down immediately upon leaving the testing room. Good luck!

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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby MMeteorite1 » February 7th, 2013, 12:51 pm

Skink wrote:I suspect this is the policy in most places. In IL, another SO-heavy State, we do not give back Regional tests. In fact, part of the price of an invitational is the understanding that you get the tests back afterwards. The only time I have ever seen a Regional test go back was when a coach was new and did not know any better. She gave out her Circuit Lab test and really regretted doing so later. The reasoning above is, I believe, the primary reason such policies are in place. There are no stakes at invitational tournaments. At Regionals, State bids are at stake. At State, it's even truer yet.

If your concern truly is wanting to learn from your mistakes, then you take those mistakes with you. If it's an event where you get a cheat sheet or binder, dedicate a small space to writing things you need to study. If not, bank it in your head and write it down immediately upon leaving the testing room. Good luck!



I don't know if I can accept your "at stake" logic. Every Region has a different test, every state test is different than every other state, no standardization. I guess I don't see it being an advantage if everyone did it. And, reflecting back, what really frustrated me was the original director's response that it was antithetical to learning. What I did learn was, what antithetical meant, so I guess the conversation wasn't a total loss. I'm not lossing any sleep over this, thought I would strike up a topic for debate between SCOLY comrads. Thanks for your thoughtful reply MM1

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Re: Ohio 2013 Why are Regional and State tests never returne

Postby MMeteorite1 » February 7th, 2013, 12:57 pm

kentuckyfan1001 wrote:Though the regional supervisor may have framed it that way, I believe the real reason is because they don't want teams questioning the final scores of events. At invitationals, often you can find mistakes in grading tests and whatnot. Though you may get angry and maybe even cheated out of a medal, you don't move on to states as a result of an invitational. That's why it doesn't matter too much at invitationals. At a regional, however, the stakes are high - one arbitration could make the difference between a team making it and not. If they gave the tests back to each team, what would happen is every team that didn't make states who was close to making it would try to arbitrate to get their scores lower. Not returning the tests in a sense keeps the integrity of the regional.

MMeteorite1 wrote:I had a hardy debate after regionals last year with one of the Directors at our regional (won't mention which one). Though he agreed that he, as a student particiapant, learned a great deal from mistakes made at invitationals, he said the upper level directors "believe that returning the tests is antithetical to the learning process -- in that if you are studying to ace a test, you are not learning the subject as well as you should be." The problems and flaws with that position are many.
1. You're never taking the same test, this isn't the PSAT (which by the way at least tell you which sections you did better or worse on)
2. Anyone every heard of learning from your mistakes?
3. How infrequently, through our entire educational process, K thru college, do "educators" not return tests and/or graded work? Answer, other than standardize tests, NEVER! Why is that? Because it provides feedback and helps redirect your energies toward weak areas as well as validating what you thought to be correct.
4 Though I have yet to enter, I believe it is common practice in the business world to perform perfomance appraisals. I don't think they just say, "well Bob, your the 12th best guy on the assemble line, you need to do better" and then walk you to the door. Bob thought he was doing a good job, and wants to get better. If the boss told Bob, "Bob, your really solid on the nuts and bolts, but moving the widgit from A to B needs some work" then Bob has a better chance at performing better, DO YA THINK! Give it some thought. If you can honestly say, you have never found value in reviewing an exam, then you are a better man or woman than me. OUT



I think that is the most valid point I have heard. I can see coaches grinding over every tests looking for a point, challenging the question that may have more than one right answer. I could have accepted that, but don't tell me it's because it's contrary to learning. The irony being in came from an actual college professor of a very distinguished learning institution too. Thanks for your thoughtful reply!

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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby wlsguy » February 7th, 2013, 1:01 pm

One thing to consider is some Ohio regionals share the same test. It's not common but it does occur more often than you might think.
I understand both the pro's and con's of giving tests back and probably would error on the side of learning.

One option is to make the blank tests available. This prevents the concerns with arbitration but still allows students to learn new material.

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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby MMeteorite1 » February 7th, 2013, 1:08 pm

wlsguy wrote:One thing to consider is some Ohio regionals share the same test. It's not common but it does occur more often than you might think.
I understand both the pro's and con's of giving tests back and probably would error on the side of learning.

One option is to make the blank tests available. This prevents the concerns with arbitration but still allows students to learn new material.



Another great idea! I like it. Thank you for your thoughtful reply. True forum debate, that was my goal of making the original comment.

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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby chalker7 » February 7th, 2013, 1:52 pm

wlsguy wrote:One thing to consider is some Ohio regionals share the same test. It's not common but it does occur more often than you might think.
I understand both the pro's and con's of giving tests back and probably would error on the side of learning.

kentuckyfan1001 wrote:Though the regional supervisor may have framed it that way, I believe the real reason is because they don't want teams questioning the final scores of events. At invitationals, often you can find mistakes in grading tests and whatnot. Though you may get angry and maybe even cheated out of a medal, you don't move on to states as a result of an invitational. That's why it doesn't matter too much at invitationals. At a regional, however, the stakes are high - one arbitration could make the difference between a team making it and not. If they gave the tests back to each team, what would happen is every team that didn't make states who was close to making it would try to arbitrate to get their scores lower. Not returning the tests in a sense keeps the integrity of the regional.


These are the reasons tests do not get returned. One thing to add is that (although I don't agree with the practice, it does happen) some tournaments around the country reuse tests from one year to the next. Obviously you can't return the tests if that's something you plan on doing.

MMeteorite1, while I appreciate your enthusiasm and insight into how tournaments are run, I would caution you about directly confronting a tournament director about things like this, especially in a "hardy" manner. You risk being misinterpreted and can potentially damage your team in unpredictable ways.
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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby MMeteorite1 » February 7th, 2013, 5:05 pm

chalker7 wrote:
wlsguy wrote:One thing to consider is some Ohio regionals share the same test. It's not common but it does occur more often than you might think.
I understand both the pro's and con's of giving tests back and probably would error on the side of learning.

kentuckyfan1001 wrote:Though the regional supervisor may have framed it that way, I believe the real reason is because they don't want teams questioning the final scores of events. At invitationals, often you can find mistakes in grading tests and whatnot. Though you may get angry and maybe even cheated out of a medal, you don't move on to states as a result of an invitational. That's why it doesn't matter too much at invitationals. At a regional, however, the stakes are high - one arbitration could make the difference between a team making it and not. If they gave the tests back to each team, what would happen is every team that didn't make states who was close to making it would try to arbitrate to get their scores lower. Not returning the tests in a sense keeps the integrity of the regional.


These are the reasons tests do not get returned. One thing to add is that (although I don't agree with the practice, it does happen) some tournaments around the country reuse tests from one year to the next. Obviously you can't return the tests if that's something you plan on doing.

MMeteorite1, while I appreciate your enthusiasm and insight into how tournaments are run, I would caution you about directly confronting a tournament director about things like this, especially in a "hardy" manner. You risk being misinterpreted and can potentially damage your team in unpredictable ways.


Chalker: Thanks. Appreciate the insight and advice. I can assure you that it was done with the utmost respect. Also I have attempted to maintain a certain level of anonymity for myself and team and the regional director as well. Not trying to show anyone up. It was several weeks after the event. If I recall, I think it was even after our state meet. It was never heated, just asking the question and trying to understand the logic, kind of like what scientist do, ironic, don't you think?

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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby silverheart7 » February 7th, 2013, 7:11 pm

I think I'm a little too late to join this debate, but I thought I'd contribute some thoughts.

In my region, we do not get states and regionals tests back. It never really occured to me to ask why, but I understand the points made above me.

Something I'd like to contribute is the idea of the tests being withheld to preserve something as simple as feelings. When I leave an event, or even a test in school, I normally have a good idea of what I knew, and what I need to work on. If I didn't do well, and I know it, getting a graded test back can be painful. I agonize over it for days, because seing a number in red ink makes everything worse.

We did have an issue last year, where a test was graded wrong. My coach knew directly from the placings that something wasn't right. That girl would not have gotten the placement she recieved, because she was third year and the best in our school. He put in an appeal, and it turns out the event superviser missed a page of her test, and forgot to give her 20 or 30 something more points. She would have won with the score she actually got.
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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby MMeteorite1 » February 7th, 2013, 8:40 pm

silverheart7 wrote:I think I'm a little too late to join this debate, but I thought I'd contribute some thoughts.

In my region, we do not get states and regionals tests back. It never really occured to me to ask why, but I understand the points made above me.

Something I'd like to contribute is the idea of the tests being withheld to preserve something as simple as feelings. When I leave an event, or even a test in school, I normally have a good idea of what I knew, and what I need to work on. If I didn't do well, and I know it, getting a graded test back can be painful. I agonize over it for days, because seing a number in red ink makes everything worse.

We did have an issue last year, where a test was graded wrong. My coach knew directly from the placings that something wasn't right. That girl would not have gotten the placement she recieved, because she was third year and the best in our school. He put in an appeal, and it turns out the event superviser missed a page of her test, and forgot to give her 20 or 30 something more points. She would have won with the score she actually got.



Lots of great points on this topic. Appreciate all the thought and detail put into your replies. Definitely a more complex question once you dig into it.

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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby chalker » February 7th, 2013, 8:49 pm

There are lots of reasons tests aren't given back, including 'it's just the way we've always done it'. However, please know that there isn't some sort of blanket prohibition from the National office on releasing tests back to teams. So if you think this is truly something important, please consider talking to tournament supervisors about the possibility (just don't do it the day of the tournament... they are way too busy then). Also keep in mind that returning the tests requires significant labor. At the WSU Invitational we just ran, it took almost as much manpower to sort out all the tests and stuff them in the appropriate envelopes as it did to actually enter the scores into the scoring system.

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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby MMeteorite1 » February 10th, 2013, 5:08 pm

chalker wrote:There are lots of reasons tests aren't given back, including 'it's just the way we've always done it'. However, please know that there isn't some sort of blanket prohibition from the National office on releasing tests back to teams. So if you think this is truly something important, please consider talking to tournament supervisors about the possibility (just don't do it the day of the tournament... they are way too busy then). Also keep in mind that returning the tests requires significant labor. At the WSU Invitational we just ran, it took almost as much manpower to sort out all the tests and stuff them in the appropriate envelopes as it did to actually enter the scores into the scoring system.



Another topic. Has there every been any discussion about how many teams from Ohio go to Nationals? Similar to sports where stronger conferences that consistant finish high, they seem to get more qualifers into NCAA basketball and bowl games, etc. Ohio High school wrstling does it as well. Just a question. Please don't think I just a rebel with these questions. I love SCIOLY. Thanks

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Re: Ohio 2013

Postby wlsguy » February 10th, 2013, 5:17 pm

Each State gets to send the winner from their State competition. States with the highest membership then get another spot until the limit for the Natls is reached (generally 60 teams / division).


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