Flying Trio

baker
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Re: Flying Trio

Post by baker »

I wonder if your state is located where the weather is reasonable all year long. Up here in NYS it's not and bottle rocket is very difficult to have as an event. This past year at the Athens Inventational the temperature started at minus 4 deg F and the best the day got was 7 deg F. How the judges pulled it off was incrediable. They had to have 2 salimander heaters to keep things from freezing up, one for the launcher and one for the compressor. Many of the NYS regionals held just skipped the event all together. Southern Tier held the event and it was 28 deg F. Kind of hard to go to states with no chance to practice fly or compete prior. Building and practice is mostly done during November, December and January. Contrary to "global warming" it still gets cold and very windy cold in north country. Oh yeah, nobody hangs around to watch something that has nothing to do with them or their team in cold weather so it's not really a spectator thing... I do agree with all that you say about the building, designing, the hours put in to make it fly good and deploy an egg/parchute. Just a shame if the event is skipped after all that work...
calgoddard wrote:I'd like to see WS as a C event every year, but I understand the SciOly officials want event rotation.

BLG is a nice division B event to prepare students for WS. It can also be run as a C event, and good flyers will get 20+ seconds in a ceiling height of 25 feet.

Helicopter is probably suited for Division C.

WS and Helicopter can be a bit challenging for most middle school students.

I must come to the defense of the bottle rocket events.

They are safe, inexpensive and great spectator events, and draw many students into SciOly. All the jokes about "rocket science" ensure press and media coverage.

Much science is involved in the bottle rocket events. When parachutes were not allowed, students had to learn all about stability, and all the areodynamic factors necessary to achieve "backsliding."

When parachutes were allowed in bottle rocket, another skill set had to be added to use active parachute deployment.

When active parachute deployment was prohibited in Egg-O-Naut and an egg had to be recovered unbroken, a new skill set and more science had to be learned.

In our state bottle rocket has never been a "luck event." It has been consistently won by students that put in tons of time designing, testing and perfecting. The same team that won gold in Egg-O-Naut at our 2009 state finals also won gold at the largest 2009 regionals in our state prior to the state finals. That success in Egg-O-Naut was not achieved by luck any more than the winners in WS at the 2009 Nationals achieved their success by luck.
Uncle Fester
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Re: Flying Trio

Post by Uncle Fester »

"It's a boy!"? Plenty of those. Here area few I've seen the past few years:

Our Prom
50 and Over the Hill
Menopause, Here We Come! (my favorite--coach pranked her kids)
Twins!

My invitational, affectionately nicknamed "Frostbite frolic", had ONE year of higher-than-zero temperatures. Regionals was somewhat iffy (held 4/5 of the time), and States was a problem like once or twice, as I can remember. Statistically, weather isn't THAT big of a problem come the serious tournaments; what happens is the bad weather people complain as a group every chance they get and the good weather people really don't respond. While it'd be nice to have all weather-proof events (indoors), I wonder how a comparison of "weather-influenced bottle rocket teams" with "teams canceling participation altogether due to bad weather" would fare. Between snow, rain, tornadoes, and even a few epidemics, I'm sure it'll be close.
Uncle Fester, Maker & Fiction Science Writer

The Misadventures of the Electric Detention
The Revenge of the Electric Detention
The Curse of the Electric Detention
>> Three full-length adventures, 26 short stories and counting!
jacdad
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Re: Flying Trio

Post by jacdad »

I'm not saying I prefer BLG to WS, but it is not as simple or as undesirable as some have suggested. ;)

I think if you gave C div. builders a crack at BLG, you would pretty much have to get 2 sec. per foot, or not be competitive.

Eyeball, I'd have to agree about the weird sayings on the balloons (ours was a big "I love you" heart), but whatever gets the job done. Also, did you see Sewickley Academy's glider in '08? That is the kind of thing you would probably see from C teams. They had to do some pretty serious wood selection and building to come up with those gliders.

The Helicopter event sounds cool. Our High School coach is interested in running this as a trial event. After reading this thread, I may try to build one myself, just for the fun of it. :D
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eyeball138
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Re: Flying Trio

Post by eyeball138 »

I actually did see Sewickley's glider, and it was really incredible to watch. Looking back at the results that you posted last year, I see that Shady Side and your school did even better. That's really impressive, so congratulations :D

To make a BLG which could do reasonably well would take a lot less work than to make a Wright Stuff that would do reasonably well. That's my main point. A glider is less complex, and simply easier to put together. 2 sec/foot would be an excellent glider. I can see a whole bunch of schools around that rate making the timing exactness even more important. I guess I would like to see it tried as a C event, but if many schools are bunched around similar times, I don't think it should be continued in C.
My SHMS Team Results:
2007
Regionals- 3rd
States- 5th

2008
Regionals- 3rd
States- 5th

2009
Regionals- 2nd
States- 4th

2010
Regionals- 1st
States- 2nd
Nationals- 19th

C Division...
jander14indoor
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Re: Flying Trio

Post by jander14indoor »

blue cobra wrote:<SNIP>
The problem I see with that is that the hieght of the student could potentially give people an unfair advantage. While this is possible with WS, most people, especially at higher levels of competition, can build a plane that climbs from floor to ceiling.<SNIP>
I disagree with some of the other posters, even more than student height, physical skill IS important in hand launch gliders. Not purely strength, but consistency and accuracy. Should that be an element in SO?
As to Wright Stuff, anyone trying to use height for an advantage is already scoring in the bottom 25%. Best times come from launching near the floor and flying all the way to the ceiling and back.
gh wrote:As for helicopter, it all comes down to what we leave up to the competitor to design and build. For example, will the rotor be balsa-and-tissue (or mylar) like for WS/BLG surfaces, or will it be commercially made like WS propellers? Will there be a similar performance and skill gap as in indoor for WS plastic props vs. LPP solid balsa props vs. OPP/F1D covered props? I could imagine people coming up with VP mechanisms for the helicopter too.
Since the main flying element of the helicopter IS the rotor, it must be student made under the proposed rules, no pre-made rotors allowed. Heck, its the key building task. And it will stay that way if I can make it happen.
VP, hey, lets get some working rotors made before we throw in that complication.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI
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Re: Flying Trio

Post by carneyf1d »

I disagree with some of the other posters, even more than student height, physical skill IS important in hand launch gliders. Not purely strength, but consistency and accuracy. Should that be an element in SO?
The only way you get consistency and accuracy together is through practice. And practice should be an element in SO.
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Re: Flying Trio

Post by wlsguy »

As someone who has coached all 3 of the proposed events in the last 2 years in Ohio, I would like to add my comments.

BLG- The planes were built in ~ 2 hours total. The trimming could be done in a couple of hours and, if the planes were built to the weight minimum, a drop of 2 sec / foot was easily achieved. Most of the teams has something that could fly. This is really beginning aviation and, unless additional requirements were placed on the C division teams, the competition would be very tight. Since most teams have something that flies reasonable well, spectators find it interesting.

WS- This event has been around a long time, is proven, and changes enough to provide challenge. It could be varied / made more difficult through the use of bonuses for no touch flights, require landing in a target area, ROG, etc. Probably the most watched event in S.O.

Helicopters- Most of the helicopters that I saw in the State Competition were variations of the “ceiling walker”. These have solid rotors and instructions to build them can be found online. I only saw one design with a built up / covered rotor. In regards to performance, many of them had very low flight times. This especially a concern since only 34 of the 80 teams at the competition competed. The other schools had already decided the event was too difficult. This event would be challenging for the C Division, especially if built up rotors are required. It was difficult and frustrating for our B division team. I would expect a very large number of teams to do poorly initially, judges / timers to have a difficult task with low flight times, and a spectator thinking it was just too difficult.

Overall, I favor keeping Helicopters as a trial for a few more years to increase the skill base, make WS the primary C division event with modifications each year (no touch, ROG, etc), and vary B division between BLG and basic WS. Thanks.
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Re: Flying Trio

Post by jacdad »

wlsguy wrote: make WS the primary C division event with modifications each year (no touch, ROG, etc), and vary B division between BLG and basic WS. Thanks.
:D :D :D

That would be great if possible. Sounds like the trio is the way they are going.

I would agree that for C div. BLG, multiple timers would almost be mandatory. ;)

Eyeball: Launching guts sometimes goes a long way, in BLG and WS! ;)

Sadly, I probably won't be able to help judge next year. Our main administrating coach retired this year, and I will have to be keeping track of the whole team. I'll try to find a way to deal with it. :cry:
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