Egg-O-Naut C

[rocketman1555]

Now I certainly don't blame the SO event coordinator for the wind, but it does bring up the fact that an uncontrolled variable (wind) introduced a huge measure of random chance into this event, something that one is supposed to avoid in a science competition.

Wind is one of the things that teams can prepare for though, and since they don't have to impound they can judge the weather conditions up to their launch time and then use whichever rocket they feel better launching under the weather conditions. You can also practice in wind, cold, and heat to have an idea of how well you will do in different weather conditions, which would take out the uncontrolled variable to some degree.

[cypressfalls Robert]

at nationals you could just walk in and check in to start your launch...so you would simply "pick" your own conditions for the launch.

[seoliver]

Now I certainly don't blame the SO event coordinator for the wind, but it does bring up the fact that an uncontrolled variable (wind) introduced a huge measure of random chance into this event, something that one is supposed to avoid in a science competition.

Wind is one of the things that teams can prepare for though, and since they don't have to impound they can judge the weather conditions up to their launch time and then use whichever rocket they feel better launching under the weather conditions. You can also practice in wind, cold, and heat to have an idea of how well you will do in different weather conditions, which would take out the uncontrolled variable to some degree.

I agree that general conditions can be practiced for. Rain is an interesting case that can impact the choice of rocket or parachute. Crosswind is in the same genre, but the updraft is another matter. Perhaps the judge on the ground should be instructed to rule in the case of an updraft becoming a violation of the energy rule. A little whiff is one thing, but if you catch a big one, particularly if the recovery system was designed to take advantage of such a thing, it becomes a bit of an imposition on the other competitors. Since the rocket had been approved for launch (it's safe and legal), the team should be given extra time to reset and retry.

[rocketman1555]

Now I certainly don't blame the SO event coordinator for the wind, but it does bring up the fact that an uncontrolled variable (wind) introduced a huge measure of random chance into this event, something that one is supposed to avoid in a science competition.

Wind is one of the things that teams can prepare for though, and since they don't have to impound they can judge the weather conditions up to their launch time and then use whichever rocket they feel better launching under the weather conditions. You can also practice in wind, cold, and heat to have an idea of how well you will do in different weather conditions, which would take out the uncontrolled variable to some degree.

I agree that general conditions can be practiced for. Rain is an interesting case that can impact the choice of rocket or parachute. Crosswind is in the same genre, but the updraft is another matter. Perhaps the judge on the ground should be instructed to rule in the case of an updraft becoming a violation of the energy rule. A little whiff is one thing, but if you catch a big one, particularly if the recovery system was designed to take advantage of such a thing, it becomes a bit of an imposition on the other competitors. Since the rocket had been approved for launch (it's safe and legal), the team should be given extra time to reset and retry.

why should an updraft be considered a violation of the energy rule, its a naturally occurring weather phenomena and can easily be taken into account when designing rockets, and its not something that the person launching the rocket can actually control

[andrewwski]

Yeah, any sort of rule like that would make judging way too subjective. Sometimes people will just get lucky.

[seoliver]

why should an updraft be considered a violation of the energy rule, its a naturally occurring weather phenomena and can easily be taken into account when designing rockets, and its not something that the person launching the rocket can actually control

Yeah, any sort of rule like that would make judging way too subjective. Sometimes people will just get lucky.

It's well worth the subjective judgment to reduce the "just get lucky" effect. We want a competition, not a lottery. It doesn't matter that it's a "naturally occurring weather phenomena", it still imparts energy from an illegal source. Yes, you can take it into account in your design, and then take advantage of the illegal energy (if you are lucky). A clear violation of the rules, and certainly not compatible with the spirit of the competition.

[robotman]

but if you think about it all events have a "get lucky" factor i have had some times in robots when i wouldnt have done very well if luck hadn't helped me so i don,t think it is possible or a good idea to make a rule that take out a natural phenomena

[rocketman1555]

why should an updraft be considered a violation of the energy rule, its a naturally occurring weather phenomena and can easily be taken into account when designing rockets, and its not something that the person launching the rocket can actually control

Yeah, any sort of rule like that would make judging way too subjective. Sometimes people will just get lucky.

It's well worth the subjective judgment to reduce the "just get lucky" effect. We want a competition, not a lottery. It doesn't matter that it's a "naturally occurring weather phenomena", it still imparts energy from an illegal source. Yes, you can take it into account in your design, and then take advantage of the illegal energy (if you are lucky). A clear violation of the rules, and certainly not compatible with the spirit of the competition.

every building event has a luck factor in it, and unless you can control the weather its hard to count updrafts as illegal sources of energy, and its hard to say its a violation of the rules as its uncontrollable, and the only way to control something like this is to get a really tall, large building to launch rockets in like a sports stadium with a closable roof and have no air currents whatsoever, which is almost impossible

and all events have a luck factor, wright stuff has the same thing as this, if the air currents are right in a gym a plane could stay up longer because of the way they are at that moment, different textures of floors for any EV type events, a different loading setup than teams are used to for bridges and temperature and humidity, air currents and ceiling height for trajectory, what you get for a mystery material for junkyard, how hard the test is in any testing event, almost every science olympiad event has a luck factor in it

[calgoddard]

I respectfully disagree with the proposition that a competitor has violated the 2009 Egg-O-Naut rules if the parachute carrying the egg capsule gets an updraft.

Rule 2.g. logically has to be interpreted as prohibiting a competitor from directly imparting launch energy to the rocket with anything other than the water/air pressure supplied by the event supervisor.

I have observed many regional, state and one national competition of various forms of the bottle rocket event. In a rare case, an updraft, which is totally outside the control of the competitors, can change the medal positions. However, almost always the students that spend the most time perfecting their designs and practicing prevail in the bottle rocket events.

Bottle rocket is one of the few SciOly events that spectators can see and enjoy. It teaches students about aerodynamics and should be kept in the event rotation in my opinion.

[andrewwski]

why should an updraft be considered a violation of the energy rule, its a naturally occurring weather phenomena and can easily be taken into account when designing rockets, and its not something that the person launching the rocket can actually control

Yeah, any sort of rule like that would make judging way too subjective. Sometimes people will just get lucky.

It's well worth the subjective judgment to reduce the "just get lucky" effect. We want a competition, not a lottery. It doesn't matter that it's a "naturally occurring weather phenomena", it still imparts energy from an illegal source. Yes, you can take it into account in your design, and then take advantage of the illegal energy (if you are lucky). A clear violation of the rules, and certainly not compatible with the spirit of the competition.

No, it isn't. Allowing the judges to make such calls will open up a huge field of complaint, debate, and perhaps unfairness. Nobody can count on getting an updraft, if they do manage to get one, then they got lucky.

By your reasoning one cannot launch in any sort of wind, because that is an "illegal source of energy."

It's a factor beyond the control of the competitor or judge. It's one of the shortfalls of the event that must be accepted, as there's nothing that can be done about it.