Mission Possible C

olympiaddict
Member
Member
Posts: 175
Joined: August 11th, 2012, 5:17 pm
Division: C

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby olympiaddict » September 12th, 2013, 2:48 am

I see, the transfers with steps in between make that much more possible.

I think that mech to ems, while difficult, could still be possible. The ones I have trouble with are transferring to chemical- if you've got a chemical reaction going on, the energy released is gonna come from the potential energy of the reactants, right? So how can you transfer to chemical?

Then again, chalker's post about the switch / photocell made me think that would be a legal transfer. But I may have overinterpreted his comment.

twototwenty
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 292
Joined: March 24th, 2011, 10:28 am
Division: Grad
State: NY

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby twototwenty » September 12th, 2013, 8:31 am

Couldn't you just have energy transfers that trigger other energy transfers? e.g. convert A to B, B hits a switch, allowing C to convert to D?
This is my interpretations of the rules, a series of energy CONVERSIONS that trigger the next conversion. I personally wouldn't see flipping a switch as the device transferring mechanical energy to electrical energy. However, this would make some transfers nearly impossible. Ex. transferring mechanical energy to ems.
Yeah, that's how I interpreted it as well. Although, according to chalker, supervisors might interpret it like this:

Also, a quick question of my own: do you all think using a mechanical force to close a switch would actually be a mechanical-to-electrical conversion? Because the energy for the electricity is still coming from the battery, not the switch being closed.
here's something that might help you think about this better: 4.b says "directly transfers from one basic energy form to another".

First think about a wire hooked to a motor that's hooked to a switch connected to 2 wires. In this case you transfer electrical energy to mechanical via the motor, then use the mechanical energy on the switch to permit the passage of electricity.

Compare that to a wire hooked to a light bulb that's aimed at a photocell that's connected to 2 wires. In this case you transfer electrical energy to EM energy, then use the EM energy on the photocell to permit the passage of electricity. A photocell is essentially a switch (e.g. it doesn't have to be a 'solar' cell that outputs energy, but can be a 'phototransistor' type).

Is there any fundamental difference between the 2 situations? I don't believe there is. Of course this isn't the place for official clarifications as always....
If this is the case, it would be easier for us, to be sure. However, a rule clarification on that would really be good, once they open up.

Also a side note to chalker: in photocells, the energy from the photons is actually used to excite electrons; thus, energy is directly transferred from light to electricity, unlike with a mechanical device closing a switch.

EDIT: Another quick question @chalker: Unofficially, of course, do you think that it would unhazardous lasers likely be allowed along with bulbs and leds?

chalker7
Member
Member
Posts: 611
Joined: September 27th, 2010, 5:31 pm
Division: Grad
State: CA

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby chalker7 » September 12th, 2013, 10:52 am

EDIT: Another quick question @chalker: Unofficially, of course, do you think that it would unhazardous lasers likely be allowed along with bulbs and leds?
Are lasers listed in rule 3.i?
National event supervisor - Wright Stuff, Helicopters
Hawaii State Director

chalker
Member
Member
Posts: 2092
Joined: January 9th, 2009, 7:30 pm
Division: Grad
State: OH

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby chalker » September 12th, 2013, 11:15 am


Also a side note to chalker: in photocells, the energy from the photons is actually used to excite electrons; thus, energy is directly transferred from light to electricity, unlike with a mechanical device closing a switch.

EDIT: Another quick question @chalker: Unofficially, of course, do you think that it would unhazardous lasers likely be allowed along with bulbs and leds?
Photocell is a rather generic term for a variety of types of devices. A photovoltaic cell indeed produces current and supplies voltage. However there are also photoresistors, photodiodes, and phototransistors, all of which are more analogous to a traditional mechanical switch.

Note that SO has an official laser policy (which I happened to have revised a couple years ago) at: http://www.soinc.org/lasers
We don't allow lasers not under the control of a human operator at all times. Thus I don't think you'll be able to use them in this event.

Of course, as always, this is not the place for official clarifications or FAQs.

Student Alumni
National Event Supervisor
National Physical Sciences Rules Committee Chair

olympiaddict
Member
Member
Posts: 175
Joined: August 11th, 2012, 5:17 pm
Division: C

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby olympiaddict » September 12th, 2013, 12:16 pm

getting back to my (fairly sweeping before) questions about Chemical energy (forgive me, it was before 6AM)
suppose you use a different type of energy (say thermal) to provide the potential energy necessary to start a chemical reaction that releases energy, either mechanically or thermally or whatever you like.
The activation energy you put in does come out of the reaction, but it is accompanied by stored potential energy in the reactants
Should this count as a transfer?
I would hazard a guess that it does count. Otherwise I think chemical transfers would be very very difficult.

twototwenty
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 292
Joined: March 24th, 2011, 10:28 am
Division: Grad
State: NY

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby twototwenty » September 13th, 2013, 4:27 am

getting back to my (fairly sweeping before) questions about Chemical energy (forgive me, it was before 6AM)
suppose you use a different type of energy (say thermal) to provide the potential energy necessary to start a chemical reaction that releases energy, either mechanically or thermally or whatever you like.
The activation energy you put in does come out of the reaction, but it is accompanied by stored potential energy in the reactants
Should this count as a transfer?
I would hazard a guess that it does count. Otherwise I think chemical transfers would be very very difficult.
It makes sense to me that this would work, especially if something mechanical closing a switch counts; this definitely would. You could think of the activation energy as a "switch' to "turn on" the chemical reaction. Also, if the reaction is endothermic, the energy (or at least some of it) is quite literally being converted into chemical energy, so that type of conversion should not be a concern.

User avatar
zyzzyva980
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 1539
Joined: November 18th, 2009, 12:59 pm
Division: Grad
State: IA
Location: Des Moines
Contact:

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby zyzzyva980 » September 15th, 2013, 11:51 am

The first rules clarification regarding Mission Possible has been released: http://www.soinc.org/official_rules_clarif
Olathe North HS, 2011-2013 | National Runner-Up, Sounds of Music (2012)
Never lose the joy of competing in the pursuit of winning

Resources
Site Help: FAQ & IRC
Event Help: [wiki][/wiki] & Image Gallery
Social Networks: scioly.org on Facebook & Twitter

olympiaddict
Member
Member
Posts: 175
Joined: August 11th, 2012, 5:17 pm
Division: C

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby olympiaddict » September 15th, 2013, 12:55 pm

Cool, that's helpful
Although I'm surprised that LED's are allowed but regular resistors are forbidden.

SciJ
Member
Member
Posts: 11
Joined: January 31st, 2010, 6:19 pm
Division: Grad

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby SciJ » September 15th, 2013, 3:02 pm

This whole theoretical "blackbox" rule is still perplexing. For example, assume a lightbulb wouldn't count as electrical to ems, but would a just running current through a nichrome wire count? It's not like one requires more effort by the competitor, and each pretty much completes the transfer on its own. If a candle doesn't count as chemical to thermal, does a purchased string coated in wax count? What about just a string, or even a piece of wood? These would all produce the same result (heat), with very little effort by the student, so could any of these recieve points according to this "blackbox" rule?
Yes I agree with gorf250. So if a transfer occurs inside of a component you didn't build, it doesn't count? So, you have to make your own candles and stuff? Also according to rule 3.e, it says batteries may (or may not) count for points, but how would that be possible if the blackbox rule does not allow transfers that occur within components you don't build yourself?

plaid suit guy2
Member
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: May 19th, 2013, 6:45 pm
Division: C
State: CO

Re: Mission Possible C

Postby plaid suit guy2 » September 15th, 2013, 7:16 pm

So, the start task, it has one dropping a bunch of stuff into your device. Who provides this stuff?
blue and yellow plaid suit
Nationals 2012:
Sound of Music: 8th

Nationals 2013:
Remote Sensing: 1st
ELG: 1st
MagLev: 6th

State 2014:
Boomi: 1st (scored 1824)
Circuits: 1st
Compound: 3rd
Malgev: 1st
MP: 2nd

total gold: 18
total silver: 10
total bronze: 5
6th: 1
Poudre High School class of '15


Return to “2014 Build Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest