Bungee Drop C

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blindmewithscience
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by blindmewithscience »

joiemoie wrote:Also here's something interesting I found. The equation that I provided on the wiki, aka the real bungee equation for partial bungee cords, is very very linear. Before, I figured out the physics equations for this event, I tried to simply gather data and see if it followed a linear, or quadratic, etc. model. And I was shocked to see how precise the correlation was for a linear regression. Somewhere in the .99s.

In reality, its deceptively linear. If you actually graph the bungee equation I posted and keeping one of the variables constant, it follows an almost perfectly linear model. It's basically a line that wiggles back and forth as it rises in a negligible amount.
Hm, really interesting.
With a fully elastic cord, length of the cord is linear if height is variable, and a weird non-polynomial form with mass.
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by joiemoie »

blindmewithscience wrote:
joiemoie wrote:Also here's something interesting I found. The equation that I provided on the wiki, aka the real bungee equation for partial bungee cords, is very very linear. Before, I figured out the physics equations for this event, I tried to simply gather data and see if it followed a linear, or quadratic, etc. model. And I was shocked to see how precise the correlation was for a linear regression. Somewhere in the .99s.

In reality, its deceptively linear. If you actually graph the bungee equation I posted and keeping one of the variables constant, it follows an almost perfectly linear model. It's basically a line that wiggles back and forth as it rises in a negligible amount.
Hm, really interesting.
With a fully elastic cord, length of the cord is linear if height is variable, and a weird non-polynomial form with mass.
Ok finally decided to derive the fully elastic cord equations and updated the wiki:
The modulus of elasticity constant:
Image

Length of bungee cord:
Image

You're right. length is linear if height is the variable. However, what i found significant earlier is that the partially elastic equations also had an almost linear model, even though it wasn't really linear.
Last edited by joiemoie on February 22nd, 2015, 11:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by joiemoie »

Here's also something else to note, for all you people using the equations. K is only constant up to a certain point. At a certain point it in fact will deviate from hooke's law, and at a point less than ideal. At that point you need to find k as a function of x2, and adjust accordingly. I updated the wiki on how to do that.
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by zerasaw »

Yeah I was going to do a quadratic but I plotted them and it was pretty dang planar. I was able to derive the equation by taking the differential vectors of 2 points on the plane and calculating their cross product and substituting into the general equation of a plane.
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by DKluver »

blindmewithscience wrote:
DKluver wrote:So I built the measurement tool for bungee drop but I am not sure how to calibrate the device and what the final setup should look like. Any help would be great.
Final setup for what? Drop apparatus, the bungee itself, or what? What do you need clarification on?

I was bored, so here's a road map for Bungee Drop.
1. Figure out what kind of cord you want to use. Partially elastic? Fully elastic? I talked about this with chalker earlier in the forum a bit. Decide which you want to use, as each has its own advantages and disadvatages.
2. Getting an equation for your cord. The equation for the partially elastic is available on the wiki, and one for a fully elastic cord, as i stated earlier, can be found by using initial and final energies and the modulus of elasticity.
3. Figuring out your "k" or "AE" value. This can be done by using a Vernier Force meter, or if you don't have that equipment, by attaching a mass to the bottom of your cord and finding out how much it stretched. Figure out the mass in Newtons, and bingo.
4. Drop Setup. As SOINC hasn't made a standard drop mechanism, this is basically up to you. Build something that can release your cord from the same position each trial. Or you could be inaccurate like my team, and hold the cord by had (which understandably produces some variation).
5. Test! For states, masses are between 50-300g in intervals of 10g (IIRC), while heights are between 2-5m. Try to get as many within that range as possible before your competition.
So what I need help with is the actual measuring device. I am not sure how to interpret the readout I get on the computer. Anyone else build one of these?
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by joiemoie »

zerasaw wrote:Yeah I was going to do a quadratic but I plotted them and it was pretty dang planar. I was able to derive the equation by taking the differential vectors of 2 points on the plane and calculating their cross product and substituting into the general equation of a plane.
6th place at regionals beating a Mentor and Solon team; they completely screwed up the height and weight of the bottle. I had the equation to 1cm accuracy the day before, plugged in the numbers and 40cm off the ground...but if 28cm gets you 6th place then you know something's wrong with the event.
I will say this. While the bungee drop equations are really, really planar, with planar models matching theoretically perfect models with a correlation of .99, there is still some error. The x1 column indicates mass, the x2 column indicates Drop Height, and the Y value indicates theoretically perfect length of bungee cord that one should measure for the distance for a partially elastic bungee cord. The "Predicted Y Values" indicates the Y values that would be given based on a multilinear regressional equation based off all of these theoretically ideal measurements. If a planar equation was really perfectly accurate, the "Predicted Y Values" would perfectly, if not almost, perfectly match the Y values columns. And that is mostly the case. Most of the "Predicted Y Values" are off the "Perfect Y Values" by roughly 2 cm. However, the one that is noticeable off is the .3 kg 2 meter one, which is off by 10 cm (note that this is also an issue in partially elastic bungee's where a .3 kg 2 meter drop usually forces a measurement into the elastic portion and causes a different "k" value). The R^2 value is .99, indicating still a relatively strong correlation. However, it is still a bit off from ideal. However, this also does not mean that the bungee equations are perfect. They are also approximations which are only valid within certain intervals, before the bungee cord starts to stray from the Hooke's Law equations.
Image

(Note, the same comparison between ideal bungee equations and 3 dimensional analysis was done for the entire bungee equations, and, in fact, that yielded an ever lower correlation to the ideal bungee equation for entirely elastic bungee's with a correlation of .98 rather than .99. While this may seem ok, the deviation from ideal ranged between 2 cm to up to 20 cm. For example, the ideal bungee equation yielded the ideal measured bungee length for .1 kg 5 meters with a Young's Modulus of 10 being 3.22 meters, however the 3 dimensional regressional planar equation yielded a predicted y value of 3.06, suggesting that while 3 dimensional planar equations are accurate, they still are not accurate enough.
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by TheLeftEye »

I have a question. My partner and I have been wondering how the Acton sheet containing the formula is better than just using the formulas for conversion from potential to kinetic. For some reason, when we use the PE to KE we are always off by like 40 cm. Initially, we thought that it might be because of the mass of our inelastic portion (We were worried that what was happening in the video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1erU-Cwcl2c can actually change the overall formula), but even when we made the mass of the inelastic portion negligible by switching what the rope was made out of, we are still really off, a lot more than what the tables with the .99 R-squared have. Could someone give a good explanation why that is happening?
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by joiemoie »

TheLeftEye wrote:I have a question. My partner and I have been wondering how the Acton sheet containing the formula is better than just using the formulas for conversion from potential to kinetic. For some reason, when we use the PE to KE we are always off by like 40 cm. Initially, we thought that it might be because of the mass of our inelastic portion (We were worried that what was happening in the video here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1erU-Cwcl2c can actually change the overall formula), but even when we made the mass of the inelastic portion negligible by switching what the rope was made out of, we are still really off, a lot more than what the tables with the .99 R-squared have. Could someone give a good explanation why that is happening?
Hmm, the Acton sheet uses potential energy and kinetic energy also. Would you like to clarify the equations you used?
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by samlan16 »

reedm121 wrote:so I should find the spring constant (k) before hand with trials and such and then during the competition plug in the F value (which I could calculate from the mass) into the equation F=kx to find x, which I could use to determine the height?
Also is it okay that I made my "bungee" out of rubber bands?
Yes as long as they pass the elasticity test. Make sure that you tie them tightly- I have seem people break their cords because of negligence.
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Re: Bungee Drop C

Post by joiemoie »

Ok, new breakthrough. Partially elastic bungees are terrible and will deviate from hooke's law VERY EARLY. Hooke's law for rubber material is dependent on strain, aka the stretch length / length of bungee cord. However, for higher drop heights, strain becomes higher. At a certain strain, hooke's law breaks. This is roughly at 100% strain. However, fully elastic bungees have a very low strain and always remain relatively constant. At nationals, strain for the fully elastic bungee can go up to 74%, while partially elastic bungees can go past 500%. It will have deviated from hooke's law a long time ago.
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