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Re: Designs

Post by A Person » December 27th, 2014, 8:19 am

goodcheer wrote: I can see your confusion and hope this helps. The confusion is due to the terminology used for the different functions of the golf balls. FAQ #1 you quote above is speaking of the starting golf ball that is dropped into the device. In addition to starting the device, it may initiate an ETS, but it does not have to. If it does initiate a successful ETS, it will be worth 50 points for the ETS plus 2 for going into the jug per the rules plus 100 for the starting task. The second FAQ you quote is also speaking of the starting golf ball, but is limited to the 2 points for going into the jug. If it goes into the jug per the rules, it will score 2 points plus 100 for the starting task. If it only initiates the first action, but does not start an ETS or go into a jug, it will score only the 100 points for the start task. The last FAQ you quote is referring to the golf balls that initiate an ETS. The starting golf ball, the one first dropped into the device, can also be an initiating golf ball for an ETS as stated above, but does not have to be. If the starting golf ball also initiates an ETS, it must be eligible for scoring by dropping into a jug per the rules. Both golf balls involved in an ETS must be eligible for scoring: that is, the one at the beginning of the ETS and the one at the end of the ETS must drop into a jug per the rules. That's the way I understand it. Good luck keeping up with all that.
I think I can understand what you're saying. My confusion was whether or not it would be necessary for the first ETS to be intimated for sure by a storable ball. I've gone ahead and made it so that there's no question about it, but I still see the possibilities of a problem in understanding occurring at smaller competitions. I assume you're doing this event, goodcheer?
"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - Arthur C. Clarke

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Re: Designs

Post by goodcheer » December 27th, 2014, 11:15 am

A Person wrote: I think I can understand what you're saying. My confusion was whether or not it would be necessary for the first ETS to be intimated for sure by a storable ball. I've gone ahead and made it so that there's no question about it, but I still see the possibilities of a problem in understanding occurring at smaller competitions. I assume you're doing this event, goodcheer?
I am helping coach the building events for our teams. As coaches we ponder weak and weary over these rules with our team, sometimes with a lot of questions like everybody else. This forum really helps, even though as is often pointed out, this is just our thoughts and opinions.

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Re: Designs

Post by mandelbaums16 » January 1st, 2015, 9:31 am

Hi. This is my first year doing Mission Possible and I have so many questions. All answers to any of my questions are GREATLY appreciated.

1. Does a ball need to start below ALL scoring jugs, even if it will never go near that jug, or only the jug it will be scoring in?
2. Would a "M-M-M-M-E-VL" (extreme scenario) sequence be considered a unique ETS even though it states that it must be from one energy form to a different energy form? After all, there is a string of at least 2 different and unique energy forms here, but there is also a bunch of M's in a row!
3. What constitutes as mechanical. If a ball rolls down a small ramp, falls into a "basket A" and pulls the "basket A" down which brings "basket B" -- with a ball in it -- up, and then that basket B, on its way up, hits against a stopper and tips over to allow the ball inside Basket B to roll into yet another "basket C"... is that a "M-M-M" sequence thus far? In my example, are there more mechanical transfers? Less mechanical transfers?
4. I see there is much confusion about what a scoring jug is. For some reason, it seems it must be made out of plastic, have a handle, and "have been used for a beverage." If I am able to 3D print a jug (which would clearly then be made out of plastic) with a handle and a length of at least 10cm, would I be fulfilling that last rule about it "having been used for a beverage?" I mean, It wouldn't have been made in a store with that intention or anything but if the judges want, I can fill it with orange soda and drink it at the competition before using it :D
5. If you fail to correctly label EVERY energy form used, as there can be much controversy over whether, for instance, a golf ball hitting a switch is M-E or simply E -- how severely will you be penalized? Will the entire sequence not be counted for points? Will all of the sequences following that minor error not be counted for points?

Thank you so much in advanced for any thoughts on the above questions! I understand that any answers posted are not official, however it is also clear that there are many veterans to this event that have great insight and are very gracious regarding the sharing of their knowledge.

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Re: Designs

Post by chalker » January 1st, 2015, 4:39 pm

mandelbaums16 wrote:Hi. This is my first year doing Mission Possible and I have so many questions. All answers to any of my questions are GREATLY appreciated.

1. Does a ball need to start below ALL scoring jugs, even if it will never go near that jug, or only the jug it will be scoring in?
2. Would a "M-M-M-M-E-VL" (extreme scenario) sequence be considered a unique ETS even though it states that it must be from one energy form to a different energy form? After all, there is a string of at least 2 different and unique energy forms here, but there is also a bunch of M's in a row!
3. What constitutes as mechanical. If a ball rolls down a small ramp, falls into a "basket A" and pulls the "basket A" down which brings "basket B" -- with a ball in it -- up, and then that basket B, on its way up, hits against a stopper and tips over to allow the ball inside Basket B to roll into yet another "basket C"... is that a "M-M-M" sequence thus far? In my example, are there more mechanical transfers? Less mechanical transfers?
4. I see there is much confusion about what a scoring jug is. For some reason, it seems it must be made out of plastic, have a handle, and "have been used for a beverage." If I am able to 3D print a jug (which would clearly then be made out of plastic) with a handle and a length of at least 10cm, would I be fulfilling that last rule about it "having been used for a beverage?" I mean, It wouldn't have been made in a store with that intention or anything but if the judges want, I can fill it with orange soda and drink it at the competition before using it :D
5. If you fail to correctly label EVERY energy form used, as there can be much controversy over whether, for instance, a golf ball hitting a switch is M-E or simply E -- how severely will you be penalized? Will the entire sequence not be counted for points? Will all of the sequences following that minor error not be counted for points?

Thank you so much in advanced for any thoughts on the above questions! I understand that any answers posted are not official, however it is also clear that there are many veterans to this event that have great insight and are very gracious regarding the sharing of their knowledge.
As usual, this is not the place for official comments or clarifications. That said:

1. Rule 4.a. clearly says 'the lowest scoring plastic jug', not the individual scoring jug
2. Rule 4.b. says it has to have a sequence of 2 or more transfers from one Energy Form to another, so as long as you meet that criteria, additional transfers don't matter
3. You don't get points for actions that transfer from one energy form to the same one, so why worry about whether that is M-M-M?
4. That's a big grey area and would really be up to the individual event supervisor. My advice in situations like this is why risk it? You seldom gain as much of a competitive advantage as you think you might, but run a very big risk.
5. Labeling is only scored in rule 5.e., for a total of 25 points. It doesn't impact the other parts of the score.

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Re: Designs

Post by themaker » January 2nd, 2015, 10:33 am

Hey chalker, wouldn't it make more sense to put the jug FAQ in the rules clarification page? Its such a huge clarification, and I don't think most people will notice it among the 20 other FAQs on the FAQs page. I wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't mentioned on this forum.

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Re: Designs

Post by chalker » January 3rd, 2015, 8:57 am

themaker wrote:Hey chalker, wouldn't it make more sense to put the jug FAQ in the rules clarification page? Its such a huge clarification, and I don't think most people will notice it among the 20 other FAQs on the FAQs page. I wouldn't have noticed if it wasn't mentioned on this forum.
Not really. I know it seems a bit confusing, but there is some logic to the system. Rules Clarifications are for things where we change the actual wording in the rules. We usually only issue a small handful of those each year and they are very significant. FAQs are for assistance with how we the rules writers interpret the rules or to provide guidance on things we didn't quite foresee / think about prior to publishing the rules.

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Re: Designs

Post by SWAnG » January 3rd, 2015, 12:28 pm

"A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable Transfer."
1. Can we not utliize the same transfer twice? Like utilizing the same transfer, but rebuilt and in a different location. Would this be considered the same action being used twice to a scoreable transfer even though it is a different component and acts at a different time and in a different transfer? Or does action mean action on the Task Sequence List.

2. Does it also mean that if we use some component (the exact same, nonduplicated component) twice, the second time we can just disregard it as an energy form? Or can we still incorporate it into a ETS and count it as long as it involves some other unique energy form? For instance: an E-M component is used in the first transfer (The first transfer is E-M-E-M), than in the second transfer it is utilized again to form an (E-M)-E-M-E-M. The first E-M was used in the second transfer was also used previously in the first transfer. However, if it is not counted as an energy from, they are both considered the same ETSs E-M-E-M, even though they are clearly different ETSs.

3. Also, I'm not exactly sure how to interpret this jug rule. We cut down a jug without a handle and integrated it into our device. It says you can modify the outside... so I don't see why it needs to have a handle?

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Re: Designs

Post by Phys1cs » January 3rd, 2015, 1:00 pm

SWAnG wrote:"A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable Transfer."
1. Can we not utliize the same transfer twice? Like utilizing the same transfer, but rebuilt and in a different location. Would this be considered the same action being used twice to a scoreable transfer even though it is a different component and acts at a different time and in a different transfer? Or does action mean action on the Task Sequence List.

2. Does it also mean that if we use some component (the exact same, nonduplicated component) twice, the second time we can just disregard it as an energy form? Or can we still incorporate it into a ETS and count it as long as it involves some other unique energy form? For instance: an E-M component is used in the first transfer (The first transfer is E-M-E-M), than in the second transfer it is utilized again to form an (E-M)-E-M-E-M. The first E-M was used in the second transfer was also used previously in the first transfer. However, if it is not counted as an energy from, they are both considered the same ETSs E-M-E-M, even though they are clearly different ETSs.

3. Also, I'm not exactly sure how to interpret this jug rule. We cut down a jug without a handle and integrated it into our device. It says you can modify the outside... so I don't see why it needs to have a handle?
1. I think that was more directed at having a the same transfer being used multiple times in the same place, like having an elevator bring up golf balls many times in a run. As for energy transfers, you can have the same sequence, but then only one would count for the points.

2. With this, I would say that you could reuse the component, as long as it was rebuilt and had other things in the transfer. Rebuilding it keeps the device "safer", in such that there are no questions of parallel tasks or loops of any sort. Less questionable. As for having other things in the transfer, if you don't, again, the second one wouldn't count for points.

3. Submit an FAQ...? If lots of people ask they're probably more likely to answer it, and lots of us want to know. I haven't come across a good way to answer that one.

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Re: Designs

Post by goodcheer » January 5th, 2015, 6:15 am

SWAnG wrote:"A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable Transfer."

3. Also, I'm not exactly sure how to interpret this jug rule. We cut down a jug without a handle and integrated it into our device. It says you can modify the outside... so I don't see why it needs to have a handle?
FAQ has been submitted. In the mean time, we have found half-gallon jugs (with handle, cut down to 10/11 cm) work good. They are smaller than the gallon jugs, although bigger than soda bottles.

For clarification, when you say you cut down the jug without a handle, are you saying it never had a handle or it did have one, but you cut it off? I think you can cut the handle off as long as you keep 10/11 cm of the jug. Might need to bring the portion you cut off to prove it did have a handle.
Last edited by goodcheer on January 22nd, 2015, 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Designs

Post by torqueburner » January 5th, 2015, 7:59 am

goodcheer wrote:
FAQ has been submitted. In the mean time, we have found half-gallon jugs (with handle, cut down to 10/11 cm) work good. They are smaller than the gallon jugs, although bigger than soda bottles.
[/quote]

How about 1 quart milk jugs, if you are looking for something smaller?

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