Designs

chalker
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Re: Designs

Postby chalker » February 26th, 2015, 3:20 pm

sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?


Have you looked at your local hobby shop or online?

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Re: Designs

Postby sjwon3789 » February 26th, 2015, 4:10 pm

chalker wrote:
sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?


Have you looked at your local hobby shop or online?


I searched through what radioshack has but the motors are too weak.
Are there any particular one there that I can use, that I might have overlooked, or any other shops I can search through?
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Re: Designs

Postby chalker » February 26th, 2015, 4:44 pm

sjwon3789 wrote:
chalker wrote:
sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?


Have you looked at your local hobby shop or online?


I searched through what radioshack has but the motors are too weak.
Are there any particular one there that I can use, that I might have overlooked, or any other shops I can search through?


Radioshack isn't really a 'hobby' shop. Most any city should have a local hobby shop - do a google search for yours. Tower Hobbies is a big online one you can look at. All else fails, Amazon.com is also a place to look.

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Re: Designs

Postby Phys1cs » February 26th, 2015, 5:00 pm

sjwon3789 wrote:
chalker wrote:
sjwon3789 wrote:hey guys, I'm still having trouble finding motors. Currently, I'm using a motor from a screwdriver but that's too strong and it's going to be costy to get 4 more of them. The motors at stores seem to be really weak (if we utilize threads). Any suggestions?


Have you looked at your local hobby shop or online?


I searched through what radioshack has but the motors are too weak.
Are there any particular one there that I can use, that I might have overlooked, or any other shops I can search through?


What exactly are you using the motors for? I use radioshack's 1-3V motors and they work perfectly for me run at 3V

http://www.radioshack.com/1-5-to-3vdc-h ... r&start=10

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Re: Designs

Postby patil215 » February 28th, 2015, 2:58 pm

I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.

The original rules state (bold text is mine):

A bonus ETS is defined to "receive points only if: 1) it is initiated by the process of a golf ball moving into a scoring jug (cannot be counted as an Energy Form); 2) it has a sequence of 2 or more transfers from one Energy Form to a different Energy Form; 3) the ETS is successful in its entirety as listed in the ASL; 4) it causes the next golf ball to move toward and into a scoring jug; 5) the device ceases to work when the ETS is not successful or the ETS is removed; and 6) both the initiating golf ball and next golf ball drop into a scoring jug.

One rules clarification states:

2014-10-26 19:58 Do the initiating and final golf balls have to be eligible for scoring in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring? Initiating and final referring to the golf ball starting the ETS and the golf ball released at the end of the transfer.
Yes, both the initiating and final golf balls must be eligible for scoring in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring.
No. Neither the initiating nor the final golf balls need to be scoreable balls in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring.

Another states:

2014-10-26 19:42 If more than one golf ball is being sorted, do you just drop one in to start the device and the others are already placed in the device, or must all of them be dropped in?
The Start Task golf ball is the only one that is not in the device at the Start. All other golf balls must begin in the device. at a point below the bottom of the lowest scoring plastic beverage jug. (Italics signify this text was crossed out)

Another states:

2014-10-22 08:07 Can objects, other than scoring golf balls, be placed inside of the scoring jugs, provided that they do not alter the inside surface of the jug?
No, objects other than the scoring golf balls may not be inside the scoring jugs. The inside of the scoring jug may not contain any objects, excluding scoring golf balls, throughout the duration of the run.

For the purposes of my argument I will ignore the contradiction in the third rules clarification as an error and assume that non-scoring golf balls can be in the jug.


As Chalker stated, the intent of these clarifications is to allow for ETS points if one golf ball is to fail. (For example, if an ETS is planned to have 2 + 50 + 2 points, and for whatever reason the second golf ball does not get into the jug, the ETS will still receive credit). However, I think these clarifications can be interpreted such that they do not require the attempted lifting of golf balls into a jug to cause ETS points.

As an example, we can hypothetically take two competitors:
One competitor interprets the clarifications as allowing for possible failure in lifting the golf balls, but still requiring the attempted lifting in order to qualify as starting and ending an ETS. As a result, he designs and builds 6 components to vertically lift the golf balls the required distance into the jug, spending significantly more time and possibly reducing the reliability of his device. In addition, the added components make his device larger, causing him to lose some of his competitive advantage.
The other competitor interprets the clarifications as allowing for not having to lift golf balls such that they become "scoreable". He simply has them start near the top of the jug and uses a simple mechanism to push them into the jug, allowing him to spend less time in construction, increase the reliability of his device, and reduce the size but still gain the significant ETS bonus points.

If the second competitor's interpretation is legal, at the national level he or she would have a significant advantage.

Ultimately, the judged legality of the device will come down to which way the proctor interprets the rules clarifications at the competition - whether the second competitor's interpretation does or does not violate the General Rules ("interpreting the rules in a way to give an unfair advantage"). Since a given proctor can obviously vary, given the ambiguity of the clarifications my concern is that differentiation between the winning and losing competitors will become a question of which interprets the rules more liberally and is able to get away with it rather than which has built the best device.

Any thoughts or a definitive response to this ambiguity (or at the very least, a ruling on how this would be interpreted at the national level) would be much appreciated. For now, I will interpret this in the most restrictive sense (that you are required to attempt to lift the golf balls to receive ETS points). I would send a rules clarification to try to get a clearer ruling, but I am not sure how to succinctly phrase the situation and my concerns in a clarification format that would yield a meaningful response, especially considering the existing contradictions in the previous clarifications.

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Re: Designs

Postby blakinator8 » February 28th, 2015, 9:15 pm

patil215 wrote:I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.



As an update to this question, the following line was just added to one of those clarifications:

"No, objects other than the scoring golf balls may not be inside the scoring jugs. The inside of the scoring jug may not contain any objects, excluding scoring golf balls, throughout the duration of the run. Only allowed golf balls may be in the jug whether they receive 2 points or do not receive 2 points."
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Re: Designs

Postby sjwon3789 » February 28th, 2015, 9:19 pm

blakinator8 wrote:
patil215 wrote:I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.



As an update to this question, the following line was just added to one of those clarifications:

"No, objects other than the scoring golf balls may not be inside the scoring jugs. The inside of the scoring jug may not contain any objects, excluding scoring golf balls, throughout the duration of the run. Only allowed golf balls may be in the jug whether they receive 2 points or do not receive 2 points."



That last sentence includes "do not receive 2 points." Wouldn't that mean it doesn't matter whether the golf ball is being lifted or not, since it'll still be considered as scoring golf balls? Is that what you're implying? Aka, we can technically not lift anything right?

Again, it's so ambiguous but with some interpretation, it keeps pointing towards that direction. I don't really wanna risk it until there's a clear answer...
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Re: Designs

Postby bernard » February 28th, 2015, 10:17 pm

sjwon3789 wrote:
blakinator8 wrote:
patil215 wrote:I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.



As an update to this question, the following line was just added to one of those clarifications:

"No, objects other than the scoring golf balls may not be inside the scoring jugs. The inside of the scoring jug may not contain any objects, excluding scoring golf balls, throughout the duration of the run. Only allowed golf balls may be in the jug whether they receive 2 points or do not receive 2 points."



That last sentence includes "do not receive 2 points." Wouldn't that mean it doesn't matter whether the golf ball is being lifted or not, since it'll still be considered as scoring golf balls? Is that what you're implying? Aka, we can technically not lift anything right?

Again, it's so ambiguous but with some interpretation, it keeps pointing towards that direction. I don't really wanna risk it until there's a clear answer...

Here's a link to that FAQ. There were some deletions of the word "scoring" so non-scoring golf balls may be in the scoring jug(s).
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Re: Designs

Postby goodcheer » March 2nd, 2015, 7:48 am

patil215 wrote:I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.


I concur with what you say about the contradictions and ambiguity involved in the FAQs this year. I just got another doozy of an answer to a question I submitted some time ago. Try to figure this one out and I quote:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Does the device have to lift at least one golf ball and collect it into a
scoring jug?
Mission Possible
(section: 4 / paragraph: 1 / sub-paragraph: / line: 1)

No, a team could conceivably only have one golf ball that acts as both a
first and last golf ball. Otherwise, to receive points for any transfers,
yes, teams must lift and collect golf balls.

The original question is included for your records; there is no need to
respond unless you feel there is an error.

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Re: Designs

Postby wlmeng11 » March 2nd, 2015, 11:49 am

goodcheer wrote:
patil215 wrote:I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.


I concur with what you say about the contradictions and ambiguity involved in the FAQs this year. I just got another doozy of an answer to a question I submitted some time ago. Try to figure this one out and I quote:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Does the device have to lift at least one golf ball and collect it into a
scoring jug?
Mission Possible
(section: 4 / paragraph: 1 / sub-paragraph: / line: 1)

No, a team could conceivably only have one golf ball that acts as both a
first and last golf ball. Otherwise, to receive points for any transfers,
yes, teams must lift and collect golf balls.

The original question is included for your records; there is no need to
respond unless you feel there is an error.


hmm well even if we do have to lift golf balls, it doesnt say we have to lift golf balls from below the bottom of the jug such that the balls are eligible to be scorable, so even with this FAQ you could conceivably lift each ball an inch before dropping them into the jug and still be eligible for scoring each ETS
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Re: Designs

Postby XJcwolfyX » March 2nd, 2015, 1:10 pm

Very sloppy work I must say. This is the kind of stuff that ruins Science Olympiad. We want a definitive answer on whether or not you have to lift golf balls to get points for the ETSs and this committee cannot provide that answer. Instead, we get the ambiguous answers they submit that constantly contradict themselves. It's been about a month and there is still no clear answer. Instead, clarifications about fuses, rocket igniters, and other less significant ones are being answered. While I'm grateful for goodcheer posting the answer he received, it still does not solve the problem and also is unreliable because it was not publicly posted. In the meantime, many people are unable to continue with the building of their device due to the lack of clarity provided. I don't see a reason why this question is unable to receive an answer. It would be very unfortunate and not in the spirit of Science Olympiad to get tiered or lose all of those points based off a technicality that was never cleared up, and in my opinion an answer is urgent.
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Re: Designs

Postby bernard » March 2nd, 2015, 10:25 pm

goodcheer wrote:
patil215 wrote:I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.


I concur with what you say about the contradictions and ambiguity involved in the FAQs this year. I just got another doozy of an answer to a question I submitted some time ago. Try to figure this one out and I quote:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Does the device have to lift at least one golf ball and collect it into a
scoring jug?
Mission Possible
(section: 4 / paragraph: 1 / sub-paragraph: / line: 1)

No, a team could conceivably only have one golf ball that acts as both a
first and last golf ball. Otherwise, to receive points for any transfers,
yes, teams must lift and collect golf balls.

The original question is included for your records; there is no need to
respond unless you feel there is an error.

If I'm understanding this FAQ correctly, it seems to contradict this FAQ which says the following:
Science Olympiad wrote:Do the initiating and final golf balls have to be eligible for scoring in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring? Initiating and final referring to the golf ball starting the ETS and the golf ball released at the end of the transfer. (section: 4 / paragraph: b / line: 1)
No. Neither the initiating nor the final golf balls need to be scoreable balls in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring.

Am I correctly understanding the FAQ goodcheer posted?
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Re: Designs

Postby goodcheer » March 4th, 2015, 3:00 am

bernard wrote:
goodcheer wrote:
patil215 wrote:I apologize for bringing this topic up again, but I am still confused about the requirement of scored vs unscored golf balls and their necessity in ETS eligibility.


I concur with what you say about the contradictions and ambiguity involved in the FAQs this year. I just got another doozy of an answer to a question I submitted some time ago. Try to figure this one out and I quote:

ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Does the device have to lift at least one golf ball and collect it into a
scoring jug?
Mission Possible
(section: 4 / paragraph: 1 / sub-paragraph: / line: 1)

No, a team could conceivably only have one golf ball that acts as both a
first and last golf ball. Otherwise, to receive points for any transfers,
yes, teams must lift and collect golf balls.

The original question is included for your records; there is no need to
respond unless you feel there is an error.

If I'm understanding this FAQ correctly, it seems to contradict this FAQ which says the following:
Science Olympiad wrote:Do the initiating and final golf balls have to be eligible for scoring in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring? Initiating and final referring to the golf ball starting the ETS and the golf ball released at the end of the transfer. (section: 4 / paragraph: b / line: 1)
No. Neither the initiating nor the final golf balls need to be scoreable balls in order for an ETS to be eligible for scoring.

Am I correctly understanding the FAQ goodcheer posted?


Yes, it is my opinion that is a contradiction. The second part of the answer contradicts another FAQ as you mention, although this is probably the real intent of the rule book. But, the first part of the answer I received contradicts the plain reading of the rule book. The rule plainly says, "The Device Task is to raise one or more golf balls..." Please, I hope no one says this is nit picking at the rules. The way we humans communicate is by words. Words should mean the same thing to everyone. "One or more" means at least one. I asked this simple question because it should be the easiest one to understand and to show that problems exist between the FAQs and the rule book. I admit the rules for MP seemed difficult this year, but the attempts to relax them with the FAQs have created confusion. It is like a thread has been pulled out that causes the whole garment to unravel. The lifting and collecting of golf balls is a common thread throughout the rules.

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Re: Designs

Postby goodcheer » March 4th, 2015, 3:34 am

wlmeng11 wrote:hmm well even if we do have to lift golf balls, it doesnt say we have to lift golf balls from below the bottom of the jug such that the balls are eligible to be scorable, so even with this FAQ you could conceivably lift each ball an inch before dropping them into the jug and still be eligible for scoring each ETS



This illustrates how contradictory the FAQs are. The rules plainly say, "Points are scored by lifting golf balls from a point below the bottom of the lowest scoring plastic beverage jug(s) and dropping them into a scoring jug(s)." We are told this applies only to the 2 points each golf ball receives. But, the theme of golf balls and scoring jugs carry over into the rules for ETS points. Changing the golf ball requirements for an ETS effects the entire event. If the rule book was written at the beginning according to the way the FAQs have been answered, you are correct, no one would attempt the lifting of golf balls even 1 cm. More room is available for ETS points; 50 versus 2 points is not hard to pick. This is supposed to be a high school event, but sadly has become much easier.

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Re: Designs

Postby XJcwolfyX » March 4th, 2015, 6:21 am

I don't see why they cannot just clarify this. What's holding them back?
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