Energy Transfer Sequences

[William31415]

Discussion on the scoring of ETSs (specifically related to section 4b of the rules).


Section 4b states that the process of a golf ball moving into a scoring jug cannot be counted as an "Energy Form". Does this mean that a golf ball toggling a switch to begin an ETS does not constitute a mechanical to electrical transfer? Would a golf ball that hits a lever that then toggles a switch count?

Any thoughts appreciated.

[bernard]

Discussion on the scoring of ETSs (specifically related to section 4b of the rules).

Section 4b states that the process of a golf ball moving into a scoring jug cannot be counted as an "Energy Form". Does this mean that a golf ball toggling a switch to begin an ETS does not constitute a mechanical to electrical transfer? Would a golf ball that hits a lever that then toggles a switch count?

Any thoughts appreciated.

From what I understand, what you are saying is correct. If you had a golf ball do some action, counting the golf ball as an energy form would mean all of your ETS would start with mechanical energy (the mechanical energy from the golf ball doing something). But in the examples listed in the same section, not all start with mechanical energy. Some start with electrical energy, which obviously did not directly come from the golf ball. As always, this is not an official answer. For official answer, submit an FAQ to the official Science Olympiad website, www.soinc.org.

[SpartanOlympians]

Question about rule 4c. This is my first year doing Mission Possible and I want to make sure I'm making the ETL correctly. I'm not sure I fully understand how energy transfers will be counted. So let's say I have the simplest device possible (i.e. drop ball into device, ball makes buzzer sound). Am I correct in assuming that energy transfers are counted like this:

Ball is dropped into box: N/A --> Electrical (100 pts)
Buzzer sounds, signals end of run: Electrical --> N/A (250 pts)

Thanks in advance for any input!

[abstractantics]

I also have a question concerning the energy transfer sequences. If, for example, I have a sequence that is M -> E -> T -> VL -> M and then I have another sequence that is M -> E -> T (this is just an example, not the actual sequences I will use), will the second sequence not count because the sequence is essentially a partial of the first, or will it count because sequences are scored by their entirety?

Thanks

[chalker]

I also have a question concerning the energy transfer sequences. If, for example, I have a sequence that is M -> E -> T -> VL -> M and then I have another sequence that is M -> E -> T (this is just an example, not the actual sequences I will use), will the second sequence not count because the sequence is essentially a partial of the first, or will it count because sequences are scored by their entirety?

Thanks

There is an official FAQ that answers this: http://soinc.org/node/1499

[goodcheer]

Discussion on the scoring of ETSs (specifically related to section 4b of the rules).


Section 4b states that the process of a golf ball moving into a scoring jug cannot be counted as an "Energy Form". Does this mean that a golf ball toggling a switch to begin an ETS does not constitute a mechanical to electrical transfer? Would a golf ball that hits a lever that then toggles a switch count?

Any thoughts appreciated.

This is just a thought, but a moving golf ball creates kinetic energy and kinetic energy is not one of the five energy forms listed in 3.d. That's why it cannot be counted as an energy form.

The way I see it, since the movement of the golf ball cannot be counted in the ETS, the next action after the golf ball could be counted as part of the ETS. So, action 1 would be a moving golf ball and action 2 would be a moving switch per your example. Also, since most all electrical switches are levers, it seems the ETS could begin with the activation of a switch/lever without the additional lever you mention. The switch is a mechanical device that makes an electrical connection. Hence, you would begin the ETS in this example as: M-E. Just my thoughts.

[goodcheer]

Question about rule 4c. This is my first year doing Mission Possible and I want to make sure I'm making the ETL correctly. I'm not sure I fully understand how energy transfers will be counted. So let's say I have the simplest device possible (i.e. drop ball into device, ball makes buzzer sound). Am I correct in assuming that energy transfers are counted like this:

Ball is dropped into box: N/A --> Electrical (100 pts)
Buzzer sounds, signals end of run: Electrical --> N/A (250 pts)

Thanks in advance for any input!

Please note: ETL is not mentioned in the rules and the ETL example on the official website is not based on current rules. If by ETL you mean energy transfer list, you would not have any scoreable energy transfers in the described example. Energy transfer sequences (ETS) must have at least 2 transfers from one form of energy to a different form, must involve two golf balls, etc. If you are meaning ASL, action sequence list which is not posted yet, you have only two steps as you suggest (with no ETS). However there might be a problem with this being the simplest example. Section 4 line 1 indicates the device must raise at least one ball, collect it in at least one scoring jug, and activate the buzzer. I can see you getting the 100 points for the start task with the one ball performing the one action, but you don't have any ball being raised or collected into a scoring jug. The final task might actually require these steps to get the points. The wording of the final task speaks of "the last golf ball to be counted must trigger a switch...." But, for the last golf ball "to be counted," it must drop into a jug. For a ball to count for points by dropping into a jug, it must start below the jug. So, it seems to me, in my opinion, the simplest device would be something like this: drop the ball to start the device and it lands in a cup that triggers a switch and the switch turns on a motor that pulls the golf ball up a ramp, activating a buzzer and dumping the ball into a jug. That should meet the least requirements.

The ASL for the example would be something like so (note format still not available on official website, actually speaks of TSL to come):

Ball is dropped into cup flipping a switch, initiating first action (kinetic to mechanical): 100 pts.
Motor is turned on causing ball to go up ramp (electrical to mechanical): 0 pts.
Ball is dumped out flipping a switch, turning on buzzer (mechanical to electrical): 250 pts.
Ball immediately drops into scoring jug: 2 pts.

[skyman]

I posted a question on the Rules Clarifications regarding one of the rules for Mission Possible and received a response, but I am still struggling to interpret one of the rules which states "A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable transfer." I have a few questions. 1) What does "scoreable transfer" refer to? Does it refer to changing one form of energy into another (such as M to E)? When it says scoreable does this mean the transfer is part of a ETS? 2) When the rules state that "...must contribute to only one scoreable transfer" does this mean that the component (such as a lift system consisting of a motor and pulley to lift golf balls) can be used to lift only one golf ball? Or does it mean that it can be used only once in a sequence to obtain an E to M transfer?

For example I want to be able to re-use a lift system (as a component of each of my ETS's) to lift six extra golf balls thus obtaining a maximum of 300 points from ETS. Say I have the golf balls separated at the top of the lift such that each takes a different path, thus producing a unique bonus energy transfer sequence. My question is, am I allowed to re-use the lift system in two separate ETS's? In my case, each ETS would start with E to M because an electrical motor powers the mechanical lift system. However, since each golf ball will take a different path leading to different actions and sequences, each sequence will be different. This fulfills the requirement of making unique ETS's. But when the rule states that "A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable transfer," does this mean the lift can only be used once or is the rule sying that it can be used more than once, as long as it only operates as E to M once in a particular ETS?

I understand that any answers I receive are not official, but I am really stumped on this one, and the response i received by Scioly wasn't particularly helpful either.

[goodcheer]

I posted a question on the Rules Clarifications regarding one of the rules for Mission Possible and received a response, but I am still struggling to interpret one of the rules which states "A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable transfer."

FAQ: 2014-11-30 21:45 "A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable Transfer." Can the same component be re-used to lift multiple golf balls, or does each golf ball need to be lifted by an individual component?
Yes, the same component may be re-used to lift or move multiple golf balls unless the component is part of a Bonus Energy Transfer Sequence which would then be a "scoreable Transfer".

Unfortunately, the way the FAQ answer is worded, it doesn't seem like the lift can be used for golf balls used to initiate more than one scoreable bonus ETS. It seems the only other use of the lift would be to lift golf balls and drop them into jugs for the 2 points each one would receive. Basically speaking, it seems the rule in question is saying you cannot use the same action or component for more than one scoreable ETS.

On the other hand, I can see how the rule could be interpreted to allow what you suggest. If the rule said, A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable Transfer AT A TIME, that would give you what you need. Say, for example, when the first ball goes through the lift and it starts an ETS; you have one action or component contributing to only one scoreable transfer at a time as per the rule. Then, when the second ball goes through the lift (call it round two), and it starts a unique ETS; you still have one action or component contributing to only one scoreable transfer at a time.

Someone might object saying it is the same component being used for each scoreable transfer. But, for each round, it is a different ETS. Also, the rule does not say different components must contribute to each scoreable transfer. The word "single" can refer to the same one that has been used before, but not necessarily. One component that is used more than once is still a single component each time it is used regardless of how many times it is used. This might not be worded very well, but I hope you get the point.

This highlights the problem with rule making (and all written communication which we might not be very good at). Rules need to be brief, otherwise you would have a large text book to try to follow. But rules must be crystal clear or there will be confusion. That balance is difficult and regardless of how they are written, different people seem to come away with different ideas. My suggestion is follow the rules as closely as possible and if you have doubts about a step in your device you might need to rethink it to where it cannot possibly violate the rules. In this case, it might mean making a different lift for each ETS. Good luck.

[skyman]

FAQ: 2014-11-30 21:45 "A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable Transfer." Can the same component be re-used to lift multiple golf balls, or does each golf ball need to be lifted by an individual component?
Yes, the same component may be re-used to lift or move multiple golf balls unless the component is part of a Bonus Energy Transfer Sequence which would then be a "scoreable Transfer".

Unfortunately, the way the FAQ answer is worded, it doesn't seem like the lift can be used for golf balls used to initiate more than one scoreable bonus ETS. It seems the only other use of the lift would be to lift golf balls and drop them into jugs for the 2 points each one would receive. Basically speaking, it seems the rule in question is saying you cannot use the same action or component for more than one scoreable ETS.

On the other hand, I can see how the rule could be interpreted to allow what you suggest. If the rule said, A single Action or component must contribute to only one scoreable Transfer AT A TIME, that would give you what you need. Say, for example, when the first ball goes through the lift and it starts an ETS; you have one action or component contributing to only one scoreable transfer at a time as per the rule. Then, when the second ball goes through the lift (call it round two), and it starts a unique ETS; you still have one action or component contributing to only one scoreable transfer at a time.

Someone might object saying it is the same component being used for each scoreable transfer. But, for each round, it is a different ETS. Also, the rule does not say different components must contribute to each scoreable transfer. The word "single" can refer to the same one that has been used before, but not necessarily. One component that is used more than once is still a single component each time it is used regardless of how many times it is used. This might not be worded very well, but I hope you get the point.

This highlights the problem with rule making (and all written communication which we might not be very good at). Rules need to be brief, otherwise you would have a large text book to try to follow. But rules must be crystal clear or there will be confusion. That balance is difficult and regardless of how they are written, different people seem to come away with different ideas. My suggestion is follow the rules as closely as possible and if you have doubts about a step in your device you might need to rethink it to where it cannot possibly violate the rules. In this case, it might mean making a different lift for each ETS. Good luck.

Thank you for your detailed response. I agree that this rule is ambiguous and I can understand why one should avoid building a device where one component is re-used but I can't believe that they want us to build six separate lifting systems to get the bonus points. Does anyone else find this difficult to achieve? It was hard enough for me to construct one lifting system let alone six!