Winning Regional... then what...

[kinghong1970]

so my kids won 1st place at the regional at NJIT Bridge Building B

are they entitled for the state or is there another qualifying criteria in order for them to be eligible to enter state?

[lumosityfan]

Hi kinghong1970,

First of all, congratulations on winning! Secondly, even though you guys won Bridge Building, that doesn't mean that you guys will be able to compete at state. The way that teams are chosen for states is based on how well your team did, NOT how well you guys did in an individual event. (In other words, there are no "all-star" team; you can't advance for a specific event). In order for your team to make it to states, your team needs to be in the top 50% or so of the standings. Since you guys got 16th place, I'd say it's probably not likely that you guys will make it to states, unfortunately, but you should still wait for either if NJSO emails you giving you an invite to states or you see your school's name on the list of schools invited to state on the NJSO website on January 20th. Hope this helps!

Lumosityfan

[kinghong1970]

Lumosityfan,

thank you very much for the detailed response.
it is a bit difficult to understand... maybe a bit disappointing to hear that all the work my kids put in does not entitle them to enter state.

i don't want to be that guy... the disgruntled dad you see in soccer fields... but i dread the moment i have to explain to my kids why the bridge they built, at 3.74gr that held a load of 5.4kg (just sand and the bucket) for score of a minimum of 1443.85, will not qualify for state level competition.

furthermore, the load was basically a reading based off a hanging scale measuring weight of sand and bucket, recorded and tared since the scale seem to have max load of 5kg.
the weight of loading block and chain was not added to the score listed above.

I'm sorry if i sound a bit upset.

shouldn't the score of the competition, in essence, a grade in their attention to detail, compliance and full understanding of rules, and result gained only by multiple trial and error and progress gained by analyzing the result, count more than the number of teams a school was able to bring?

just a bit frustrated and disheartened...

a really sad lesson for the kids...

[nxtscholar]

EDITED: I edited this post to address the PM you sent me. I didn't see it earlier

1. Trust me, I know how you feel. lumosityfan and I went to the same high school (and thus we competed together on the same team). Our build team is one of the best in the state yet won't get a chance to compete nationally (yet) since we can't get past states.

But I'm speaking as a competitor; I can only imagine what it feels like to tell your own kids that they're not moving on to the next level. Anyways, about that, this is Science Olympiad's policy and rationale against having "all-star" teams if you were interested: https://www.soinc.org/allstar_teams

2. Actually, number of teams a school can bring plays no role in qualification to the next level. For example, take the Union County Regional Tournament. West Windsor-Plainsboro High School North brought two teams, and team 1 got 3rd place, team 2 got 1st place. That doesn't mean they get to bring two teams to states. So actually, more accurately stated - but a subtle difference - is that your SCHOOL should place in the top 50%, taking the higher result of the two teams if applicable.

I see from the scoresheet that your middle school got a lot of 21s in events - I assume you didn't bring a full team then to compete in those events? You usually only get a number larger than the number of teams competing in an event if you got disqualified or didn't even compete. In which case, if that is what you were getting at, all I can say is find more interested people!

3. I saw the pictures and heard bridge building at NJIT was a nightmare. First off, they should not have received the weight of only the bucket and sand. You're right, the weight of the chain and loading block should have been included. At this point, it would be hard to find out the weight of those. You can try contacting the regional tournament director ([email protected]) to help you find the information or get in touch with the event supervisor. I wouldn't know who the event supervisor is, sorry.

[Unome]

Lumosityfan,

thank you very much for the detailed response.
it is a bit difficult to understand... maybe a bit disappointing to hear that all the work my kids put in does not entitle them to enter state.

i don't want to be that guy... the disgruntled dad you see in soccer fields... but i dread the moment i have to explain to my kids why the bridge they built, at 3.74gr that held a load of 5.4kg (just sand and the bucket) for score of a minimum of 1443.85, will not qualify for state level competition.

furthermore, the load was basically a reading based off a hanging scale measuring weight of sand and bucket, recorded and tared since the scale seem to have max load of 5kg.
the weight of loading block and chain was not added to the score listed above.

I'm sorry if i sound a bit upset.

shouldn't the score of the competition, in essence, a grade in their attention to detail, compliance and full understanding of rules, and result gained only by multiple trial and error and progress gained by analyzing the result, count more than the number of teams a school was able to bring?

just a bit frustrated and disheartened...

a really sad lesson for the kids...

Yeah, the all-star team thing always comes up a few times every year; it's one of those endless questions. Although the National organization has a policy against it, some states (for example, Kansas) invite 1st place Regional medal winners to compete (unranked for the purpose of official scores, but I think they get told what they would have placed or something) at State. Not sure how the number of teams a school was able to bring factors in more than slightly, since I think. I understand the feeling, though; it's a bit annoying when you have half a team that puts in effort and half a team that doesn't. All you can do is start preparing for next year right away.

[JonB]

Lumosityfan,

thank you very much for the detailed response.
it is a bit difficult to understand... maybe a bit disappointing to hear that all the work my kids put in does not entitle them to enter state.

i don't want to be that guy... the disgruntled dad you see in soccer fields... but i dread the moment i have to explain to my kids why the bridge they built, at 3.74gr that held a load of 5.4kg (just sand and the bucket) for score of a minimum of 1443.85, will not qualify for state level competition.

furthermore, the load was basically a reading based off a hanging scale measuring weight of sand and bucket, recorded and tared since the scale seem to have max load of 5kg.
the weight of loading block and chain was not added to the score listed above.

I'm sorry if i sound a bit upset.

shouldn't the score of the competition, in essence, a grade in their attention to detail, compliance and full understanding of rules, and result gained only by multiple trial and error and progress gained by analyzing the result, count more than the number of teams a school was able to bring?

just a bit frustrated and disheartened...

a really sad lesson for the kids...

Personally, as a coach (although for division C), I feel it is my responsibility to inform all participants of this when they join and before the first competition. I have no doubt that it will be a tough conversation but emphasize that Sci Oly is not a one-year process. My competitors compete year after year for the learning experience which is ultimately the point of Sci Oly. Additionally, for division B I feel that the coach should have told the parents about the structure of Sci Oly before the competition. Part of the process of Sci Oly is to have students on the team (of up to 15) work together to make sure there are no shortcomings in any of the events to help ensure qualification for the next level of competition. Most students compete in an average of 3 events (although some will have more or less).

As for the Event Supervision at your regional competition- it sounds that it was not ran properly based on the scale and I am sorry to hear that. Being that volunteers supervise all events it can be very difficult to "quality control" supervision.

The amount of teams that a school brings does not dictate who moves on to states, only the actual ranking of each event for that team. An individuals "attention to detail, and full understanding of rules, and result gained only by multiple trial and error and progress gained by analyzing the result" can win a regional, single event, but only a team that collectively has "attention to detail, and full understanding of rules, and result gained only by multiple trial and error and progress gained by analyzing the result" in ALL events will allow the progression to the next level. I am not meaning to sound harsh (once again I feel that it was the coaches responsibility to inform parents and competitors of how Sci Oly is structured) but this is something that I feel makes Sci Oly so incredibly special to those involved.

[retired1]

The head coach should have presented this fact to all of the participants early on in the program.
In Florida, the information is on line at the state web site for all that are interested.
In the last few years, our MS and HS have been able to send 2 of 2, 2 of 3, 3 of 3 and one year, 4 of 4 teams entered. (and we still can not win state).
It is a sorry state of affairs that no one checked on the ES before the event. That said, if the chain and load block were not included for all entrants, the scores should be the same. It is a bit like the Wright Stuff flying in a 12' ceiling--It is the same for all of the entrants so is fair but not optimum.

[chalker]

I just wanted to chime in a bit and reiterate what's been said already in this thread. I think the fundamental misunderstanding (which is all too common it seems), is that your 'team' consists of the 2 students that competed in the bridge building event. In reality, in SO parlance a 'team' is a group of up to 15 students that jointly compete in all 23 events, working together to achieve the best aggregate response.

We recognize and award achievements by both individual team members (via medal awarded for individual events), as well as the entire team (via team trophies and the opportunity to advance to State or National tournaments). If you look at the 'About Science Olympiad" page on the national website (https://www.soinc.org/about and https://www.soinc.org/organizing_team) you'll see we really emphasize the team aspects.

Part of the reason we don't advance individual event winners to the next level of competition is a logistical one. At a typical State tournament, there are 40-50 teams, consisting of 15 students each, resulting in 600-750 students in each division running around and needing space, food, etc. If we went to an 'all-star' format, the math would change to a max possible of 23 events * 2 students / event * 40-50 teams = 1,840-2,300 students (more than triple!). That would present a significant logistical challenge.

As noted, some states do compromise and give students that place first at regional an opportunity to compete unofficially at States, but the majority of states don't do that due to the logistical issues. Sorry that your kids will be let down by this, but please encourage them to continue to be involved and to expand into additional events so they have an opportunity to advance to States next year!

[kinghong1970]

EDITED: I edited this post to address the PM you sent me. I didn't see it earlier

1. Trust me, I know how you feel. lumosityfan and I went to the same high school (and thus we competed together on the same team). Our build team is one of the best in the state yet won't get a chance to compete nationally (yet) since we can't get past states.

But I'm speaking as a competitor; I can only imagine what it feels like to tell your own kids that they're not moving on to the next level. Anyways, about that, this is Science Olympiad's policy and rationale against having "all-star" teams if you were interested: https://www.soinc.org/allstar_teams

thank you and everyone else who've replied to this thread... i was quite irritated from this news when my kids' science teacher texted me with the results and the news that they are not able to attend the state.

i am traveling at the moment and yesterday was quite a day... spend all day in the airport or airplane, only to find out that my last flight got diverted and had to take the bus into the destitnation.

a night of sleep helped calmed things down a bit... it is in the rules... perhaps the school needed to do a better job at clarifying it to the kids and even to the parents...

2. Actually, number of teams a school can bring plays no role in qualification to the next level. For example, take the Union County Regional Tournament. West Windsor-Plainsboro High School North brought two teams, and team 1 got 3rd place, team 2 got 1st place. That doesn't mean they get to bring two teams to states. So actually, more accurately stated - but a subtle difference - is that your SCHOOL should place in the top 50%, taking the higher result of the two teams if applicable.

i am really curious how this top 50% is calculated... this will definitely give a better understanding of the rules and also better organize our school effort in the future.

I see from the scoresheet that your middle school got a lot of 21s in events - I assume you didn't bring a full team then to compete in those events? You usually only get a number larger than the number of teams competing in an event if you got disqualified or didn't even compete. In which case, if that is what you were getting at, all I can say is find more interested people!

my kids go to a very small school... 11 or 12 students per class...
i was surprised that the science teacher was able to get so many kids interested in this.
but prior to the competition, it seems some contests were taken off and some kids were told that they will not be doing that contest... due to lack of participation?

3. I saw the pictures and heard bridge building at NJIT was a nightmare. First off, they should not have received the weight of only the bucket and sand. You're right, the weight of the chain and loading block should have been included. At this point, it would be hard to find out the weight of those. You can try contacting the regional tournament director ([email protected]) to help you find the information or get in touch with the event supervisor. I wouldn't know who the event supervisor is, sorry.

nightmare?
when the professor left after Division C, one of the other girls there assisting and conducting Division B said "i don't know what to do..."

first team... this was how they did it.

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipO ... ZpbZhBC2Zu

at that point, i had to call them over, drew a diagram explaining what those scribed lines mean on the metal plate, what the blocks are... where they need to be.

the platform was not level...
the weigh in was tricky because they were handling the competitors' bridges roughly...
of course, weight of block, chain and hanging scale was not provided...

oh, and this was their official recording...

https://photos.google.com/photo/AF1QipN ... oAKuQvQEoc

oh, and i did see them measure the bridge length and height in the middle... and that's it.

[kinghong1970]

I just wanted to chime in a bit and reiterate what's been said already in this thread. I think the fundamental misunderstanding (which is all too common it seems), is that your 'team' consists of the 2 students that competed in the bridge building event. In reality, in SO parlance a 'team' is a group of up to 15 students that jointly compete in all 23 events, working together to achieve the best aggregate response.

We recognize and award achievements by both individual team members (via medal awarded for individual events), as well as the entire team (via team trophies and the opportunity to advance to State or National tournaments). If you look at the 'About Science Olympiad" page on the national website (https://www.soinc.org/about and https://www.soinc.org/organizing_team) you'll see we really emphasize the team aspects.

Part of the reason we don't advance individual event winners to the next level of competition is a logistical one. At a typical State tournament, there are 40-50 teams, consisting of 15 students each, resulting in 600-750 students in each division running around and needing space, food, etc. If we went to an 'all-star' format, the math would change to a max possible of 23 events * 2 students / event * 40-50 teams = 1,840-2,300 students (more than triple!). That would present a significant logistical challenge.

As noted, some states do compromise and give students that place first at regional an opportunity to compete unofficially at States, but the majority of states don't do that due to the logistical issues. Sorry that your kids will be let down by this, but please encourage them to continue to be involved and to expand into additional events so they have an opportunity to advance to States next year!

thank you very much for your input.

i still have the burden of trying to explain this...
i will look over those links you've provided.