New York 2016

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Re: New York 2016

Postby SHS1 » February 17th, 2016, 7:03 pm

OK, here is what I have...

Adirondack: ??
Capitol: Columbia, Niskayuna, Bethlehem
Eastern Long Island: Ward Melville, Islip, West Babylon, HHHE, Kings Park, Port Jefferson
Lake Erie Niagara: Williamsville E, St. Joseph's, Nichols, Canisius, Lancaster
Lower Hudson Valley: ??
Midwestern: Brighton, Webster Schroder, Pittsford Sutherland, Penfield, (Brockport??)
Mid-Hudson: Mount Academy, Spackenkill, John Jay, Onterora
Mid-State: Fayetteville-Manlius, Jamesville-Dewitt, Cicero-N Syracuse, Chittenango, Camden
Nassau East: Syosset, Wheatley, Division Ave., Wantagh, Hicksville, Bellmore JFK
Nassau West: Great Neck S, Kellenberg, Chaminade, Schreiber, Roslyn
NYC-Metro: Townsend Harris, Stuyvesant, Brooklyn Tech, Collegiate, Dalton, Horace Mann, Leon Goldstein
Southern Tier: Vestal, Maine-Endwell, Ithaca
(All, as far as I know, in order of how they finished in their region)
Those in bold were in the Top 10 at States last year.

In addition, I gave the "History of NY State Results" Excel file to be posted on the NY SO website. It went up for a few days, then it became a File 404. It's up to them if they want it public. UPDATE: Seems to be working now - go here.

And, IMHO, as a Regional Site Director, results aren't published by all simply because us Directors have more important things to do in life. Period.
At the Midwestern Regional competition, they said that only the top four (distinct) teams were going, so no Brockport I think. I could be wrong though! Thanks for the list.

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Re: New York 2016

Postby Lampooning » February 25th, 2016, 9:17 pm

"It is not unsportsmanlike to not release overall results to the public. They should release overall results to the competing teams, but they are by no means required to release them to the general public."

I respectfully disagree. The stake holders should have access to the results. The larger community and not just the teams have a stake in the competition. That includes others competing. It includes residents of the communities of that region. And, I think it is very odd that some of you are suggesting otherwise. Can you imagine a regionals track meet that decides to post the top 3 runners without their times and with none of the times or names of anyone else in the race. That would be absurd. It would not be in keeping with the spirit of sports events or SO. Further, although SO is a private organization, most of the schools are public and funded primarily with tax dollars. Therefore when teams are representing their schools, the results of such efforts should be made available to all those who are stake holders- the public. And I am surprised that those involved with SO don't see this as simply basic! Results of regional, state and national competitions should be made public. It is not credible that the scores from the same regionals are not posted each year because the directors can't figure out how to post, don't have the 2 minutes it takes to post or are too disorganized to post the results.

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Re: New York 2016

Postby chalker » February 26th, 2016, 10:32 am

It is not credible that the scores from the same regionals are not posted each year because the directors can't figure out how to post, don't have the 2 minutes it takes to post or are too disorganized to post the results.
I'll flip this logic around on you a bit. How many events have you competed in and NOT gotten a perfect score or 1st place in? In my opinion it's not credible that you haven't consistently gotten perfect scores and 1st place, because you can't figure out how to make your devices perfect or you don't have extra time to study or are too disorganized to have every possible piece of info in your notes.

I'd be very surprised to hear if there were any situations where tournament directors completely withheld results as a matter of principle or policy. I don't think any of them consider them to be a secret or are against public distribution. It's just many don't have the time/energy/knowledge/funding/etc.etc. to proactively publish them online. The bottom line is that in the real world there are always tradeoffs and imperfections in anything. Organizing a tournament is a SIGNIFICANT endeavor and done mostly by volunteers. Some of them are very tech-saavy and thorough, other's not so much.

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Re: New York 2016

Postby EastStroudsburg13 » February 26th, 2016, 12:47 pm

"It is not unsportsmanlike to not release overall results to the public. They should release overall results to the competing teams, but they are by no means required to release them to the general public."

I respectfully disagree. The stake holders should have access to the results. The larger community and not just the teams have a stake in the competition. That includes others competing. It includes residents of the communities of that region. And, I think it is very odd that some of you are suggesting otherwise. Can you imagine a regionals track meet that decides to post the top 3 runners without their times and with none of the times or names of anyone else in the race. That would be absurd. It would not be in keeping with the spirit of sports events or SO. Further, although SO is a private organization, most of the schools are public and funded primarily with tax dollars. Therefore when teams are representing their schools, the results of such efforts should be made available to all those who are stake holders- the public. And I am surprised that those involved with SO don't see this as simply basic! Results of regional, state and national competitions should be made public. It is not credible that the scores from the same regionals are not posted each year because the directors can't figure out how to post, don't have the 2 minutes it takes to post or are too disorganized to post the results.
There are lots of academic competitions where the overall results aren't made completely public. As long as the coaches of the teams within that region can see how their team performed with respect to the rest of the teams, there is no obligation to publicize the overall scores. Be thankful that the director is willing to host the tournament in the first place.

Also, one other thought. You are maybe, just maybe, taking this a bit too seriously.
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Re: New York 2016

Postby Unome » February 26th, 2016, 1:53 pm

I'd be very surprised to hear if there were any situations where tournament directors completely withheld results as a matter of principle or policy.
Actually Illinois as a state organization has a policy against posting scores online, and according to the State Tournament Results page on the wiki, Wyoming does as well (although I can't find any evidence of this on their website).

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Re: New York 2016

Postby chalker » February 26th, 2016, 3:45 pm

I'd be very surprised to hear if there were any situations where tournament directors completely withheld results as a matter of principle or policy.
Actually Illinois as a state organization has a policy against posting scores online, and according to the State Tournament Results page on the wiki, Wyoming does as well (although I can't find any evidence of this on their website).

/me summons bernard
Illinois has a policy against posting RAW SCORES. Item 1 on the link you provided says RANKINGS will be be publicly posted. That's exactly why I've been only referring to 'overall results', by which I mean rankings. I think the majority of tournaments do NOT make raw scores available as a matter of policy.
Last edited by chalker on February 26th, 2016, 3:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New York 2016

Postby Unome » February 26th, 2016, 5:24 pm

I'd be very surprised to hear if there were any situations where tournament directors completely withheld results as a matter of principle or policy.
Actually Illinois as a state organization has a policy against posting scores online, and according to the State Tournament Results page on the wiki, Wyoming does as well (although I can't find any evidence of this on their website).

/me summons bernard
Illinois has a policy against posting RAW SCORES. Item 1 on the link you provided says RANKINGS will be be publicly posted. That's exactly why I've been only referring to 'overall results', by which I mean rankings. I think the majority of tournaments do NOT make raw scores available as a matter of policy.
So do you know why #2 says that rankings provided to teams can't be posted on websites if #1 says rankings can be posted? I assume #3 is because Avogadro displays raw scores or something? I'm not that familiar with Avogadro.
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Re: New York 2016

Postby Lampooning » February 26th, 2016, 8:22 pm

"Also, one other thought. You are maybe, just maybe, taking this a bit too seriously."

I believe that is a way to discount someone. It seems that others on these threads take SO far more seriously than I do. Really some of you seem to have your lives wrapped up in it. Not me. But unless you believe that SO isn't worth taking a few minutes to comment on, then No, I don't believe I am taking SO too seriously or as seriously as many of you. But, I think the results should be published. Even if there are some competitions where no results are published, SO isn't one of them. May I suggest you calm down and not get so excited about my suggestion. I think it odd that a couple of regions steadfastly refuse to post their results. yes, it makes me wonder what underlies their reluctance. One apparently has very few school districts involved. I wonder if 75% of the teams that compete in that regional end up going to States. Maybe they don't want that made public because those from other regions might feel fewer from that region should go to States if it were known how few schools were in that district. I think that is the Southern Tier. They post the order of only three teams.

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Re: New York 2016

Postby syo_astro » February 27th, 2016, 6:32 am

A lot of suggestions and arguments can be made to reach solutions for various problems, but I don't think that last point made a lot of sense in reference to the issue at hand (though, I get that it comes from what east said heavily and repeating your worries/problems).

People may be reluctant for a lot of reasons, but the number and names of teams that come from Southern Tier can be figured out every year just by looking at the states list if people really cared about that (as you say, it's ~2 or 3?). The number of teams that go is standardized under scioly anyway. Typically, the only contention about that if anything is the number that go from states to nats, not from regs to states I'd say. I get what you mean in the sense that someone definitely may point oh, why does this other region get to have the majority of its region go, but I can't say I can speak as well for competitors anyway who might think that. You could play the numbers any which way, I could suppose there's actually 10 teams, so it would be fair, but I don't know that, do you? If you don't, then it's kind of a moot point unless we want to work to figure it out. I know you mentioned about them MAYBE only having 4 teams, but you even admit you don't know that because it came from the wiki (which itself may not be perfectly updated :/).

Are you strongly worried about too few teams being sent from other regions, or too many being sent from Southern Tier? To have 3 teams sent, I believe they need a minimum of 20 teams (typically it's # of teams/10 + 1), which isn't so few. Maybe they only have that many, but that would be 15% of the region minimum, which isn't that extreme compared to others. If this proves to be wrong, please find out, and it'd probably be good to report to the States sups, unless the point is you expected other people on the site to figure it out. If that was the case, then that may not happen because even older volunteers from NYS on the website may be busy with other work.

Also, when you pointed out that east and others were taking things too seriously, you made the same fallacy by saying no, others were taking things more seriously if anything. I could then go to argue everyone is taking things to seriously, if you want to go by that logic, but that wouldn't really mean much. Assuming that was your point, then yes, let's move on. End of the day, we can suppose a lot of things, but I'd rather do stuff that's more action-oriented. But note if they (say the Southern Tier tourny runners) are not willing to respond to email, it's tough to realistically spend time trying to drive there, send mail, etc pushing at that issue so hard. There's already a lot of issues with test writing and the set up of tournaments alone. It is definitely an important issue, like many. But like for myself, I'm busy with college, writing tests, etc, and even I haven't had time to post the NYS results onto the Wiki even though BroNi has already sent them to me. I might have time this weekend, but people do get busy, so I hope that much is understood. I think it's preferable with this sort of thing to propose and identify solutions to issues in addition to the problems. If I had to choose between these things I'm currently doing and trying to push some unresponsive tourny runner, I'd rather be working on writing tests, proctoring, grading, etc because I think on my own part that'll be a more efficient use of my time.

Hope this was informative and helps the conversation progress! Looking forward to seeing how states goes as always, I know it's upcoming, so hope teams are working hard.
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Re: New York 2016

Postby Lampooning » February 27th, 2016, 11:59 pm

Seriously... :lol:


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