Appeal to Nationals on State decision

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Re: Appeal to Nationals on State decision

Postby Unome » April 27th, 2016, 1:19 pm

FYI - If this is indeed North Carolina you are talking about, that state is the home of the current National Event Supervisor for Mission Possible (who I believe has been running the event since it was created). However I'm unsure whether he actually ran the event at the tournament (or even whether the state being referenced is North Carolina).
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Re: Appeal to Nationals on State decision

Postby sciolyFTW_aku » April 27th, 2016, 2:23 pm

I gotta agree with eaststraudsbourg13 on this. From a rules stand point all the rules say, correct if i'm wrong, is that the student needs to submit a TSL at impound OR at event check in. It must be legible, neat and accurate. I see nowhere that you cannot show it in electronic format. Even if the TSL is not submitted on time(they went and got the electronic device) I see only a 25 point penalty as outlined in scoring.

25 points if the TSL is on time as designated by the tournament director

Sooooo would a 25 point penalty dropped them by 4 places in rankings???? As your state scoring show(assuming we are talking NC) it would take a 4 point hit to knock the 2nd place team down to third based on the second tie breaker of most 2nd places. If their device was a top 4 device I would assume there would be a substantial drop off in scores from places 5-10. That's just an assumption from seeing scores all over the place.
Do you have the scores of Mission Possible at North Carolina State SO?
B-)

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Re: Appeal to Nationals on State decision

Postby abby1kanobe » April 27th, 2016, 2:44 pm

I gotta agree with eaststraudsbourg13 on this. From a rules stand point all the rules say, correct if i'm wrong, is that the student needs to submit a TSL at impound OR at event check in. It must be legible, neat and accurate. I see nowhere that you cannot show it in electronic format. Even if the TSL is not submitted on time(they went and got the electronic device) I see only a 25 point penalty as outlined in scoring.

25 points if the TSL is on time as designated by the tournament director

Sooooo would a 25 point penalty dropped them by 4 places in rankings???? As your state scoring show(assuming we are talking NC) it would take a 4 point hit to knock the 2nd place team down to third based on the second tie breaker of most 2nd places. If their device was a top 4 device I would assume there would be a substantial drop off in scores from places 5-10. That's just an assumption from seeing scores all over the place.
Do you have the scores of Mission Possible at North Carolina State SO?
No, I was looking at the team scores. The second place overall point total was 226 and they placed 4th in mission. The third place team had 229 points and placed 2nd in Mission. Based on tie breakers JMAM would have to have dropped from 4th to 8th place in mission to end up with 230 total team points therefor giving JMRM the second place finish. My point of the statement was that in most states a difference of 25 points in mission would not equate to a drop of 4 places. It could, but I doubt it would. Also I dont see a lot wrong with them showing the TSL on a electronic device as long as it was done when requested by the proctor. It does not state in the rules it needs to be on paper. It could just as easily be on an Ipad or a tablet.

If anyone has the event scores it would at least put sciolyfan at ease that regardless of what happened it would not have changes the overall team placements. Due to the fact that JMRM actually scored higher in the event I am assuming his/her argument is being made in reference to overall team standings.

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Re: Appeal to Nationals on State decision

Postby sciolyfan » April 27th, 2016, 3:45 pm

I gotta agree with eaststraudsbourg13 on this. From a rules stand point all the rules say, correct if i'm wrong, is that the student needs to submit a TSL at impound OR at event check in. It must be legible, neat and accurate. I see nowhere that you cannot show it in electronic format. Even if the TSL is not submitted on time(they went and got the electronic device) I see only a 25 point penalty as outlined in scoring.

25 points if the TSL is on time as designated by the tournament director

Sooooo would a 25 point penalty dropped them by 4 places in rankings???? As your state scoring show(assuming we are talking NC) it would take a 4 point hit to knock the 2nd place team down to third based on the second tie breaker of most 2nd places. If their device was a top 4 device I would assume there would be a substantial drop off in scores from places 5-10. That's just an assumption from seeing scores all over the place.
Do you have the scores of Mission Possible at North Carolina State SO?
you see nowhere in the mission possible rules that it cannot be in the electronic format but the general rules says this - "All electronic devices capable of external communication (including cell phones) must be turned off, unless expressly permitted in the event rule". yes they did not communicate externally but they did use the internet to download their TSL. At this point it is a moot point because the scores are final. however I do want to know what the penalty is for violating the general rule (cell phone usage)

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Re: Appeal to Nationals on State decision

Postby chalker » April 27th, 2016, 4:20 pm

chalker will be on this thread with his take in 3... 2...
...1.....;)

Standard caveat as always that this is not the place for official statements, etc....

The comments on this thread are generally correct, however there is one important aspect that hasn't been mentioned: The National Office as an independent organization has complete discretion on who they invite to the National Tournament. They generally won't get engaged in State level issues. As such, in the hypothetical situation that a State's official rankings are changed at a later date to reflect a new 1st place, with the former 1st place now in 2nd place, the National Office could decide to still invite just the 2nd place team to the National Tournament.
@abby1kanobe - does allowing a team to download their TSL for mission possible from their cell phone and defending them saying there is nothing in the rule that requires them to have it on paper qualify as gross negligence? there is a state that will go unnamed just did that!


No, that doesn't even come close to a 'gross negligence'. That's the kind of thing that arbitrators face all the time at tournaments and have to make decisions on. Also note that in most states, arbitrators won't consider appeals against another team. We only respond to arbitrations regarding your own team.
you see nowhere in the mission possible rules that it cannot be in the electronic format but the general rules says this - "All electronic devices capable of external communication (including cell phones) must be turned off, unless expressly permitted in the event rule". yes they did not communicate externally but they did use the internet to download their TSL. At this point it is a moot point because the scores are final. however I do want to know what the penalty is for violating the general rule (cell phone usage)


Note General Rule #5 also applies, which states that officials are encouraged to apply the least restrictive penalty. Without more specific information, for all we know there was some penalty of some sort applied. As to what the penalty is for violating general rules, it states explicitly at the top that it could result in penalty points or disqualification.

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Re: Appeal to Nationals on State decision

Postby iwonder » April 27th, 2016, 9:23 pm

sciolyfan, word of advice. Work as hard as you can. Do as much as you can do. Give zero, zero, cares about what happens to other people. And do not, do not feel the inclination to police a scioly tournament. It's not your job, you've got better things to do. (Like beat them the old fashioned way).
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Re: Appeal to Nationals on State decision

Postby samlan16 » April 28th, 2016, 11:44 am

sciolyfan, word of advice. Work as hard as you can. Do as much as you can do. Give zero, zero, cares about what happens to other people. And do not, do not feel the inclination to police a scioly tournament. It's not your job, you've got better things to do. (Like beat them the old fashioned way).
Agreed.
Remember, we are proud of every team that participated and you are all winners.


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