Rules clarification

jdemaris
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Rules clarification

Post by jdemaris »

I am serving as a coach along with two others. I am seeking clarification on two issues. The Olympiad Website says to "ask a coach." Well, I AM a coach so who the heck do I ask now? I sent an email to the National Site but don't know if I will get an answer. Here is what I sent. Figured I'd try here too.


RE: Science Olympiad 2015‐2016 Season Air Trajectory Checklist / Data Sheet

First question relates to "3.b. Device converts energy to air pressure / air movement "
One of the coaches thinks a catapult is allowed. I do not. A catapult converts gravitational energy into mechanical energy - not into air pressure or air movement. Am I correct that such a catapult is not allowed?

Second question relates to "3.c. Device air chambers start at and return automatically to ambient air pressure "

Please define "device." Suppose an air reservoir is used to store compressed air made by weight-driven mechanical motion (call it device #1). Then it is released into a 2nd air chamber that propels a tennis ball (device #2). Does the reservoir have to empty completely and achieve ambient pressure or does that aspect of the rule only apply to the chamber that propels the tennis ball?

One additional question. If an air-pressure reservoir is built - is there a limit on the PSI generated? Pretty high pressure could be achieved with multiple strokes of an air-pump with an 11 pound weight and ample mechanical advantage. This assuming multiple strokes to charge an air-reservoir are allowed. I see nothing that prohibits it. Just the weight limit of approx. 11 lbs.
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Re: Rules clarification

Post by windu34 »

jdemaris wrote:I am serving as a coach along with two others. I am seeking clarification on two issues. The Olympiad Website says to "ask a coach." Well, I AM a coach so who the heck do I ask now? I sent an email to the National Site but don't know if I will get an answer. Here is what I sent. Figured I'd try here too.


RE: Science Olympiad 2015‐2016 Season Air Trajectory Checklist / Data Sheet

First question relates to "3.b. Device converts energy to air pressure / air movement "
One of the coaches thinks a catapult is allowed. I do not. A catapult converts gravitational energy into mechanical energy - not into air pressure or air movement. Am I correct that such a catapult is not allowed?

Second question relates to "3.c. Device air chambers start at and return automatically to ambient air pressure "

Please define "device." Suppose an air reservoir is used to store compressed air made by weight-driven mechanical motion (call it device #1). Then it is released into a 2nd air chamber that propels a tennis ball (device #2). Does the reservoir have to empty completely and achieve ambient pressure or does that aspect of the rule only apply to the chamber that propels the tennis ball?

One additional question. If an air-pressure reservoir is built - is there a limit on the PSI generated? Pretty high pressure could be achieved with multiple strokes of an air-pump with an 11 pound weight and ample mechanical advantage. This assuming multiple strokes to charge an air-reservoir are allowed. I see nothing that prohibits it. Just the weight limit of approx. 11 lbs.
#1: You are correct. The device described should not be allowed.
#2: The "device" refers to everything inside the 70x70 cube (div C). Both chambers you described must return to ambient air pressure.
#3: There is no official limit on PSI, but If the ES decides said device is "unsafe", you may get DQed.
These are my personal interpretations of the rules as a competitor in my second year in this event.
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Re: Rules clarification

Post by jdemaris »

Thank you for the reply.
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Re: Rules clarification

Post by chalker »

jdemaris wrote:I am serving as a coach along with two others. I am seeking clarification on two issues. The Olympiad Website says to "ask a coach." Well, I AM a coach so who the heck do I ask now? I sent an email to the National Site but don't know if I will get an answer. Here is what I sent. Figured I'd try here too.


RE: Science Olympiad 2015‐2016 Season Air Trajectory Checklist / Data Sheet

First question relates to "3.b. Device converts energy to air pressure / air movement "
One of the coaches thinks a catapult is allowed. I do not. A catapult converts gravitational energy into mechanical energy - not into air pressure or air movement. Am I correct that such a catapult is not allowed?

Second question relates to "3.c. Device air chambers start at and return automatically to ambient air pressure "

Please define "device." Suppose an air reservoir is used to store compressed air made by weight-driven mechanical motion (call it device #1). Then it is released into a 2nd air chamber that propels a tennis ball (device #2). Does the reservoir have to empty completely and achieve ambient pressure or does that aspect of the rule only apply to the chamber that propels the tennis ball?

One additional question. If an air-pressure reservoir is built - is there a limit on the PSI generated? Pretty high pressure could be achieved with multiple strokes of an air-pump with an 11 pound weight and ample mechanical advantage. This assuming multiple strokes to charge an air-reservoir are allowed. I see nothing that prohibits it. Just the weight limit of approx. 11 lbs.
The nature of your questions (and the fact you reference the checklist / data sheet) make me suspect you haven't read the rules. You really need to read them carefully, as some of what you ask is mostly explained in the complete wording of 3.b. and 3.c. (versus the summary wording in the checklist).

That is likely why you got the response back from the national site that you did. As always, this is not the place for official statements or clarifications. However, in regards to your questions:

-Catapults aren't inherently prohibited. What is required is the use of air pressure / movement. I've seen catapult designs that incorporate those and are thus allowed by the rules.
-Line 1 in the rule pretty clearly states that teams are to build a single device, which all the subsequent rules apply to and reference
-Regarding your PSI question, there isn't an inherent limit. However I've never seen anyone successfully build a device with a high-pressure air pump. There are too many other restrictions in the rules that make them very hard to engineer, particularly with regards to the trigger and the requirements to automatically return to ambient pressure.

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Re: Rules clarification

Post by jdemaris »

Thanks for the reply. As to the rules - yes, I read them, carefully. Words do not mean the same things, to all people, all the time, in all places. Thus the reason why legal documents carry contextual definitions of words when used within a certain document. As to the meaning of "device" - I was not clear on that simply because many machines operate by incorporating different working parts that can all be fairly called "devices." I.e. one "device" can be made up of many devices.

RE the catapult question - one coach felt that a catapult using the "see-saw" design, with gravitational force pushing down one end, while the other throwing a projectile would qualify. From the way I interpret the written rules, it does not. No "air movement" or "air pressure" propelling anything. Not unless there is a cushion of air between the projectile and the cradle it "almost" sits in. This subject came up because the coach stated he saw a catapult like I've described in one of the posted videos.
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Re: Rules clarification

Post by windu34 »

I believe Chalker is referring to teams (such as my own) using commercial pistons to swing an arm. I posted a picture of a device I built using this style that many would see as a catapult in the image gallery.
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Re: Rules clarification

Post by chalker »

jdemaris wrote:Thanks for the reply. As to the rules - yes, I read them, carefully. Words do not mean the same things, to all people, all the time, in all places. Thus the reason why legal documents carry contextual definitions of words when used within a certain document. As to the meaning of "device" - I was not clear on that simply because many machines operate by incorporating different working parts that can all be fairly called "devices." I.e. one "device" can be made up of many devices.

RE the catapult question - one coach felt that a catapult using the "see-saw" design, with gravitational force pushing down one end, while the other throwing a projectile would qualify. From the way I interpret the written rules, it does not. No "air movement" or "air pressure" propelling anything. Not unless there is a cushion of air between the projectile and the cradle it "almost" sits in. This subject came up because the coach stated he saw a catapult like I've described in one of the posted videos.
Very glad to hear you have read the rules, and you are indeed correct in that words can be ambiguous sometimes (although we do strive to make the rules as clear as possible within the space constraints we have). To be explicit, whenever SO rules talk about a 'device', it usually means the thing the students bring in it's entirety. Regarding the catapult video, please keep in mind that we change the rules a bit every year. In the past there were versions of this event that did NOT have the air movement/pressure requirement, and hence a standard, basic catapult design was allowed. There are lots of pictures and videos floating around of those types of devices. Also note that there doesn't have to be a 'cushion of air' between the projectile and 'cradle'. As windu34 indicates, some teams use a piston hooked up to a traditional catapult arm, which is allowed. The air pressure / movement has to come into play SOMEWHERE in the device, not necessarily at the last moment where it directly imparts force onto the projectile.

In case you haven't seen them, the general rules are also important (inside the back cover of the rules manual and also at https://www.soinc.org/ethics_rules). General rule #1 is really important as it allows for flexibility and creativity by the competitors.

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Re: Rules clarification

Post by jdemaris »

One more question. Let's say the kids build a device that uses a compressor that is driven by the max allowed weight. Would they allowed to lower the weight several times to raise the PSI and store it in a reservoir. Then the device is triggered to release the air into the tube that powers the projectile. Is there a limit to how many times that weight can be dropped? Also - does the dropping of the weight - be it once, or many times HAVE to be part of the firing process? Simply put - pump it up several times by lifting and releasing the weight. Then when desired PSI is achieved - stepping back - pulling a string that releases the air and propels the projectile. Is this allowed? I have read the rules several times and I do not see where it is prohibited.
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Re: Rules clarification

Post by windu34 »

jdemaris wrote:One more question. Let's say the kids build a device that uses a compressor that is driven by the max allowed weight. Would they allowed to lower the weight several times to raise the PSI and store it in a reservoir. Then the device is triggered to release the air into the tube that powers the projectile. Is there a limit to how many times that weight can be dropped? Also - does the dropping of the weight - be it once, or many times HAVE to be part of the firing process? Simply put - pump it up several times by lifting and releasing the weight. Then when desired PSI is achieved - stepping back - pulling a string that releases the air and propels the projectile. Is this allowed? I have read the rules several times and I do not see where it is prohibited.
You can not do this. Students may not touch the device at all except via the release mechanism which may not impart any significant energy into the device. If you were to step into the device square and repeatedly pick up and drop your mass, that would result in multiple violations of the rules. Try asking an impartial parent or teacher and get their opinion on matters such as this where the rules are pretty clear on what you can/cannot do.
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Re: Rules clarification

Post by jdemaris »

I AM trying to ask someone impartial for an answer. I DO know how to read and I've read the rules many times. If you see something in the written rules that states - clearly - that what I suggested cannot be done - that is fine with me. I just want to know before having the kids start on something. I do not see what you are referring to. Please lead me to, or post a citation from, any written rules that state things the way you just did. Again, I am not trying to argue. Just seeking clarification now before any of the kids start something. If this is about science and using the scientific method - the rules need to be clearly written - or at least - fully explainable by some sort of authority. Thus the reason I am asking here on this forum. You state . . . "Students may not touch the device at all except via the release mechanism which may not impart any significant energy into the device." That makes NO sense to me at all. You say the student cannot take any action before releasing the trigger, and you also say releasing the trigger "may not impart any significant energy into the device." Going by that - there cannot be any power from anywhere, as I read it. Part of this is to harness Newtonian gravitational energy and convert it to air flow or air pressure - correct? At some point in time, either before the release trigger is tripped, or at the time it is tripped - a weight along with gravity has it's energy harnessed. The way I read what you wrote - there is no allowance anywhere for this aspect of the procedure. If, let's say that one pull of a string permits a weight to fall, that compresses air, and fires a projectile - it is not allowed by what you just stated. That because activating that trigger is "imparting significant energy."
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