New Jersey 2017

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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby nxtscholar » March 8th, 2017, 12:30 pm

Bazinga+ wrote:
bernard wrote:
Random Human wrote:Anyone know why this states' states (haha) is on a tuesday, today?

State tournaments in New Jersey have always been on Tuesdays. Regional tournaments are also on weekdays.

Very odd that they would hold tournaments on school days. Any particular reason for this other than tradition? Also does anyone have the complete (tentative) states results?


Getting this right off the bat, let me just say that:
1. I'm an undergraduate and thus alumni of the Science Olympiad program
2. I'm not from any of the HS in the tentative top 3
3. I have friends from several of the HS in question

Those combined make me fairly unbiased.

Now, to answer your question, no one has the complete state results because it's a fairly contentious topic right now. To give context, and because I'm looking for other people's insight on this - particularly any national event supervisors roaming around here. Ultimately the appeal revolves around one event: helicopters. As I understand it, there was originally an appeal filed to cancel helicopters because of the way the event was run; NJSO admitted that the event supervisor made a mistake in general. To what extent they're willing to admit there was a mistake, idk. But I'm told that the event supervisor allowed helicopters that got stuck in the rafters up in the ceiling to still be timed, which of course violates rule 4j and gives a huge advantage to teams that benefited from this. However, there's a counterappeal going on to reinstate helicopters and count it towards the results.

The implications are rather clear: as is, South would be going to nationals. However, if helicopters were to count, and if they found mistakes in other events and fixed them, it is quite possible Montgomery (or even North, but that's a longer shot) would benefit from the counterappeal and have a shot to take the spot for nationals. Based on the fact the NJSO officially posted the statement that results are not official until five days after the tournament, and they haven't posted the results, it seems quite possible.

What I'm curious about is this; there has been precedence of helicopters results being used several times despite having issues with rafters. However, in this case, an official appeal was made and approved to cancel helicopters on the grounds of improper evaluation of helicopters, which NJSO seems to acknowledge to an extent. Are there any grounds to reinstate it? Events at NJSO have been run poorly before, but at least they gave the same disadvantage or issue to all competitors equally. In this case, I'm told Monty may have benefited from this. To me personally, the only way to have rectified the issue was redo the heli runs once the error was made. But since they didn't, and they initially approved the appeal to cancel the event from impacting team results, I don't see a clear basis. If anything, since NJSO admitted it was run under a wrong interpretation of the rules, wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?

Thoughts?

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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby pb5754[] » March 8th, 2017, 4:18 pm

nxtscholar wrote:
Bazinga+ wrote:
bernard wrote:State tournaments in New Jersey have always been on Tuesdays. Regional tournaments are also on weekdays.

Very odd that they would hold tournaments on school days. Any particular reason for this other than tradition? Also does anyone have the complete (tentative) states results?


Getting this right off the bat, let me just say that:
1. I'm an undergraduate and thus alumni of the Science Olympiad program
2. I'm not from any of the HS in the tentative top 3
3. I have friends from several of the HS in question

Those combined make me fairly unbiased.

Now, to answer your question, no one has the complete state results because it's a fairly contentious topic right now. To give context, and because I'm looking for other people's insight on this - particularly any national event supervisors roaming around here. Ultimately the appeal revolves around one event: helicopters. As I understand it, there was originally an appeal filed to cancel helicopters because of the way the event was run; NJSO admitted that the event supervisor made a mistake in general. To what extent they're willing to admit there was a mistake, idk. But I'm told that the event supervisor allowed helicopters that got stuck in the rafters up in the ceiling to still be timed, which of course violates rule 4j and gives a huge advantage to teams that benefited from this. However, there's a counterappeal going on to reinstate helicopters and count it towards the results.

The implications are rather clear: as is, South would be going to nationals. However, if helicopters were to count, and if they found mistakes in other events and fixed them, it is quite possible Montgomery (or even North, but that's a longer shot) would benefit from the counterappeal and have a shot to take the spot for nationals. Based on the fact the NJSO officially posted the statement that results are not official until five days after the tournament, and they haven't posted the results, it seems quite possible.

What I'm curious about is this; there has been precedence of helicopters results being used several times despite having issues with rafters. However, in this case, an official appeal was made and approved to cancel helicopters on the grounds of improper evaluation of helicopters, which NJSO seems to acknowledge to an extent. Are there any grounds to reinstate it? Events at NJSO have been run poorly before, but at least they gave the same disadvantage or issue to all competitors equally. In this case, I'm told Monty may have benefited from this. To me personally, the only way to have rectified the issue was redo the heli runs once the error was made. But since they didn't, and they initially approved the appeal to cancel the event from impacting team results, I don't see a clear basis. If anything, since NJSO admitted it was run under a wrong interpretation of the rules, wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?

Thoughts?


I agree

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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby sci_oly » March 8th, 2017, 5:28 pm

pb5754[] wrote:
nxtscholar wrote:
Bazinga+ wrote:Very odd that they would hold tournaments on school days. Any particular reason for this other than tradition? Also does anyone have the complete (tentative) states results?


Getting this right off the bat, let me just say that:
1. I'm an undergraduate and thus alumni of the Science Olympiad program
2. I'm not from any of the HS in the tentative top 3
3. I have friends from several of the HS in question

Those combined make me fairly unbiased.

Now, to answer your question, no one has the complete state results because it's a fairly contentious topic right now. To give context, and because I'm looking for other people's insight on this - particularly any national event supervisors roaming around here. Ultimately the appeal revolves around one event: helicopters. As I understand it, there was originally an appeal filed to cancel helicopters because of the way the event was run; NJSO admitted that the event supervisor made a mistake in general. To what extent they're willing to admit there was a mistake, idk. But I'm told that the event supervisor allowed helicopters that got stuck in the rafters up in the ceiling to still be timed, which of course violates rule 4j and gives a huge advantage to teams that benefited from this. However, there's a counterappeal going on to reinstate helicopters and count it towards the results.

The implications are rather clear: as is, South would be going to nationals. However, if helicopters were to count, and if they found mistakes in other events and fixed them, it is quite possible Montgomery (or even North, but that's a longer shot) would benefit from the counterappeal and have a shot to take the spot for nationals. Based on the fact the NJSO officially posted the statement that results are not official until five days after the tournament, and they haven't posted the results, it seems quite possible.

What I'm curious about is this; there has been precedence of helicopters results being used several times despite having issues with rafters. However, in this case, an official appeal was made and approved to cancel helicopters on the grounds of improper evaluation of helicopters, which NJSO seems to acknowledge to an extent. Are there any grounds to reinstate it? Events at NJSO have been run poorly before, but at least they gave the same disadvantage or issue to all competitors equally. In this case, I'm told Monty may have benefited from this. To me personally, the only way to have rectified the issue was redo the heli runs once the error was made. But since they didn't, and they initially approved the appeal to cancel the event from impacting team results, I don't see a clear basis. If anything, since NJSO admitted it was run under a wrong interpretation of the rules, wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?

Thoughts?


I agree


Let me first say I am not affiliated with any of the teams in question. I disagree for many reasons. First of all, it's not like all the teams had their helicopters stuck in the rafters. I'm not sure exactly how many teams did not get their helicopters stuck, but evidently, enough didn't as medals were still awarded to the 6 teams with the best times. If only say, 1 or 2 teams had not gotten their helicopters stuck, I would understand why the event would be canceled. However, at least 6 teams were able to get legitimate scores, and it's very likely that more teams were able to get legitimate scores as well, so it's baffling why the event was canceled. Furthermore, it has been rumored that Monty, a contender for nationals, performed quite well in this event, and it's unfair to completely disregard their performance in this event, considered they performed a lot better relative to WWP.

Secondly, I believe that the issue of getting the helicopter stuck in the rafters can be avoided by the builders. Let me first say that while I am not at all experienced at this event, teams undoubtedly prepared for this type of situation to arise, and altered their design accordingly to overcome the challenges that this situation posed. This is evidently in the fact that AT LEAST 6 teams were able to get legitimate times. I personally watched the helicopters event, and saw many teams able to avoid getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. Ultimately, the builders themselves are at fault for getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. While I am not disregarding the fact that a helicopter can get stuck in the rafters purely by chance, preventative measures could have been taken by teams.

The commenter above stated ", wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?". Quite frankly, not reinstating this event would disregard the spirit of the entire competition. In my opinion, it is blasphemous that this event by canceled just because some teams got frustrated that their helicopters got stuck in the rafters; if other teams were able to not get their helicopters stuck, why couldn't you? For the overall fairness of the competition, I really hope this event gets reinstated.

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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby Unome » March 8th, 2017, 5:34 pm

It's only March and we already have a controversy on our hands? (though at least this is nowhere near as big as Ohio last year)
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby lumosityfan » March 8th, 2017, 5:37 pm

sci_oly wrote:
pb5754[] wrote:
nxtscholar wrote:
Getting this right off the bat, let me just say that:
1. I'm an undergraduate and thus alumni of the Science Olympiad program
2. I'm not from any of the HS in the tentative top 3
3. I have friends from several of the HS in question

Those combined make me fairly unbiased.

Now, to answer your question, no one has the complete state results because it's a fairly contentious topic right now. To give context, and because I'm looking for other people's insight on this - particularly any national event supervisors roaming around here. Ultimately the appeal revolves around one event: helicopters. As I understand it, there was originally an appeal filed to cancel helicopters because of the way the event was run; NJSO admitted that the event supervisor made a mistake in general. To what extent they're willing to admit there was a mistake, idk. But I'm told that the event supervisor allowed helicopters that got stuck in the rafters up in the ceiling to still be timed, which of course violates rule 4j and gives a huge advantage to teams that benefited from this. However, there's a counterappeal going on to reinstate helicopters and count it towards the results.

The implications are rather clear: as is, South would be going to nationals. However, if helicopters were to count, and if they found mistakes in other events and fixed them, it is quite possible Montgomery (or even North, but that's a longer shot) would benefit from the counterappeal and have a shot to take the spot for nationals. Based on the fact the NJSO officially posted the statement that results are not official until five days after the tournament, and they haven't posted the results, it seems quite possible.

What I'm curious about is this; there has been precedence of helicopters results being used several times despite having issues with rafters. However, in this case, an official appeal was made and approved to cancel helicopters on the grounds of improper evaluation of helicopters, which NJSO seems to acknowledge to an extent. Are there any grounds to reinstate it? Events at NJSO have been run poorly before, but at least they gave the same disadvantage or issue to all competitors equally. In this case, I'm told Monty may have benefited from this. To me personally, the only way to have rectified the issue was redo the heli runs once the error was made. But since they didn't, and they initially approved the appeal to cancel the event from impacting team results, I don't see a clear basis. If anything, since NJSO admitted it was run under a wrong interpretation of the rules, wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?

Thoughts?


I agree


Let me first say I am not affiliated with any of the teams in question. I disagree for many reasons. First of all, it's not like all the teams had their helicopters stuck in the rafters. I'm not sure exactly how many teams did not get their helicopters stuck, but evidently, enough didn't as medals were still awarded to the 6 teams with the best times. If only say, 1 or 2 teams had not gotten their helicopters stuck, I would understand why the event would be canceled. However, at least 6 teams were able to get legitimate scores, and it's very likely that more teams were able to get legitimate scores as well, so it's baffling why the event was canceled. Furthermore, it has been rumored that Monty, a contender for nationals, performed quite well in this event, and it's unfair to completely disregard their performance in this event, considered they performed a lot better relative to WWP.

Secondly, I believe that the issue of getting the helicopter stuck in the rafters can be avoided by the builders. Let me first say that while I am not at all experienced at this event, teams undoubtedly prepared for this type of situation to arise, and altered their design accordingly to overcome the challenges that this situation posed. This is evidently in the fact that AT LEAST 6 teams were able to get legitimate times. I personally watched the helicopters event, and saw many teams able to avoid getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. Ultimately, the builders themselves are at fault for getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. While I am not disregarding the fact that a helicopter can get stuck in the rafters purely by chance, preventative measures could have been taken by teams.

The commenter above stated ", wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?". Quite frankly, not reinstating this event would disregard the spirit of the entire competition. In my opinion, it is blasphemous that this event by canceled just because some teams got frustrated that their helicopters got stuck in the rafters; if other teams were able to not get their helicopters stuck, why couldn't you? For the overall fairness of the competition, I really hope this event gets reinstated.


As a former event supervisor for Helicopters (Princeton University Invy 2017), I have some responses to this comment. First, no, they cannot plan for events like that. That's the nature of the competition; sometimes you get the luck of the draw. Yes, they do try their best to make their planes not crash. But there's no guarantee that it won't. Also, remember that you can't control the plane mid-flight. Secondly, actually the event supervisors BROKE THE RULES. The rules say that when the plane gets stuck on rafters, that the time needs to be stopped when the rotors are unable support the actual plane. That did not happen. They just simply stopped timing when the rotors stopped moving. That is so unfair to the competitors because how can you tell how long the rotors will necessarily stop? When I supervised Helicopters, I saw a lot of helis go on the catwalk on top of the stage in a lecture hall. Under those circumstances, there's no way that the rotors would support the helicopters necessarily. If we just let the rotors continue flying, that introduces even more of an uncertainty that'll be unfair to the competitors. Also, the fact that the event supervisors BROKE THE RULES should say a lot to the unfairness of the competition. One of my friends told me that the competitors actually told the event supervisor what they were supposed to do. The ES ignored them, suggesting that perhaps there are some inferior motives for the ES. This event should have been cancelled because it was not run within the spirit of the rules. The event was not canceled because of stuck planes. Of course then there would be no reason to cancel the event. However, the event was canceled because the event supervisor failed to heed the correct timing rules EVEN AFTER PEOPLE TOLD HIM OTHERWISE. Thus, they did the right thing by canceling the event.
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby SPP SciO » March 8th, 2017, 5:46 pm

sci_oly wrote:The commenter above stated ", wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?". Quite frankly, not reinstating this event would disregard the spirit of the entire competition. In my opinion, it is blasphemous that this event by canceled just because some teams got frustrated that their helicopters got stuck in the rafters; if other teams were able to not get their helicopters stuck, why couldn't you? For the overall fairness of the competition, I really hope this event gets reinstated.


I don't know anything about helicopters (division B here) but it sounds like the issue was, those teams that did get their helicopters stuck received extra points they did not deserve. It's not the "stuck in the rafters" teams that are frustrated, but those who built and operated more carefully would be.

If there was a "clean" way to revisit the scores - meaning, the supervisors could identify exactly which teams were stuck, and re-calculate the time somehow, that would be great. But, this isn't a pro sports event; there are no slow-motion replay cameras. The simplest solution that's also just is to throw out that event from the overall score (but obviously still award medals to the winners).
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby bernard » March 8th, 2017, 5:47 pm

sci_oly wrote:Let me first say I am not affiliated with any of the teams in question. I disagree for many reasons. First of all, it's not like all the teams had their helicopters stuck in the rafters. I'm not sure exactly how many teams did not get their helicopters stuck, but evidently, enough didn't as medals were still awarded to the 6 teams with the best times. If only say, 1 or 2 teams had not gotten their helicopters stuck, I would understand why the event would be canceled. However, at least 6 teams were able to get legitimate scores, and it's very likely that more teams were able to get legitimate scores as well, so it's baffling why the event was canceled. Furthermore, it has been rumored that Monty, a contender for nationals, performed quite well in this event, and it's unfair to completely disregard their performance in this event, considered they performed a lot better relative to WWP.

Secondly, I believe that the issue of getting the helicopter stuck in the rafters can be avoided by the builders. Let me first say that while I am not at all experienced at this event, teams undoubtedly prepared for this type of situation to arise, and altered their design accordingly to overcome the challenges that this situation posed. This is evidently in the fact that AT LEAST 6 teams were able to get legitimate times. I personally watched the helicopters event, and saw many teams able to avoid getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. Ultimately, the builders themselves are at fault for getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. While I am not disregarding the fact that a helicopter can get stuck in the rafters purely by chance, preventative measures could have been taken by teams.

The commenter above stated ", wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?". Quite frankly, not reinstating this event would disregard the spirit of the entire competition. In my opinion, it is blasphemous that this event by canceled just because some teams got frustrated that their helicopters got stuck in the rafters; if other teams were able to not get their helicopters stuck, why couldn't you? For the overall fairness of the competition, I really hope this event gets reinstated.

You claim not to be affiliated with any of the teams in question. I disagree.
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby sci_oly » March 8th, 2017, 5:57 pm

bernard wrote:
sci_oly wrote:Let me first say I am not affiliated with any of the teams in question. I disagree for many reasons. First of all, it's not like all the teams had their helicopters stuck in the rafters. I'm not sure exactly how many teams did not get their helicopters stuck, but evidently, enough didn't as medals were still awarded to the 6 teams with the best times. If only say, 1 or 2 teams had not gotten their helicopters stuck, I would understand why the event would be canceled. However, at least 6 teams were able to get legitimate scores, and it's very likely that more teams were able to get legitimate scores as well, so it's baffling why the event was canceled. Furthermore, it has been rumored that Monty, a contender for nationals, performed quite well in this event, and it's unfair to completely disregard their performance in this event, considered they performed a lot better relative to WWP.

Secondly, I believe that the issue of getting the helicopter stuck in the rafters can be avoided by the builders. Let me first say that while I am not at all experienced at this event, teams undoubtedly prepared for this type of situation to arise, and altered their design accordingly to overcome the challenges that this situation posed. This is evidently in the fact that AT LEAST 6 teams were able to get legitimate times. I personally watched the helicopters event, and saw many teams able to avoid getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. Ultimately, the builders themselves are at fault for getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. While I am not disregarding the fact that a helicopter can get stuck in the rafters purely by chance, preventative measures could have been taken by teams.

The commenter above stated ", wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?". Quite frankly, not reinstating this event would disregard the spirit of the entire competition. In my opinion, it is blasphemous that this event by canceled just because some teams got frustrated that their helicopters got stuck in the rafters; if other teams were able to not get their helicopters stuck, why couldn't you? For the overall fairness of the competition, I really hope this event gets reinstated.

You claim not to be affiliated with any of the teams in question. I disagree.

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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby Bazinga+ » March 8th, 2017, 6:42 pm

pb5754[] wrote:
nxtscholar wrote:
Bazinga+ wrote:Very odd that they would hold tournaments on school days. Any particular reason for this other than tradition? Also does anyone have the complete (tentative) states results?


Getting this right off the bat, let me just say that:
1. I'm an undergraduate and thus alumni of the Science Olympiad program
2. I'm not from any of the HS in the tentative top 3
3. I have friends from several of the HS in question

Those combined make me fairly unbiased.

Now, to answer your question, no one has the complete state results because it's a fairly contentious topic right now. To give context, and because I'm looking for other people's insight on this - particularly any national event supervisors roaming around here. Ultimately the appeal revolves around one event: helicopters. As I understand it, there was originally an appeal filed to cancel helicopters because of the way the event was run; NJSO admitted that the event supervisor made a mistake in general. To what extent they're willing to admit there was a mistake, idk. But I'm told that the event supervisor allowed helicopters that got stuck in the rafters up in the ceiling to still be timed, which of course violates rule 4j and gives a huge advantage to teams that benefited from this. However, there's a counterappeal going on to reinstate helicopters and count it towards the results.

The implications are rather clear: as is, South would be going to nationals. However, if helicopters were to count, and if they found mistakes in other events and fixed them, it is quite possible Montgomery (or even North, but that's a longer shot) would benefit from the counterappeal and have a shot to take the spot for nationals. Based on the fact the NJSO officially posted the statement that results are not official until five days after the tournament, and they haven't posted the results, it seems quite possible.

What I'm curious about is this; there has been precedence of helicopters results being used several times despite having issues with rafters. However, in this case, an official appeal was made and approved to cancel helicopters on the grounds of improper evaluation of helicopters, which NJSO seems to acknowledge to an extent. Are there any grounds to reinstate it? Events at NJSO have been run poorly before, but at least they gave the same disadvantage or issue to all competitors equally. In this case, I'm told Monty may have benefited from this. To me personally, the only way to have rectified the issue was redo the heli runs once the error was made. But since they didn't, and they initially approved the appeal to cancel the event from impacting team results, I don't see a clear basis. If anything, since NJSO admitted it was run under a wrong interpretation of the rules, wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?

Thoughts?


I agree

From what I've heard the helicopters events was run in the same exact location 3 years ago and counted. I believe this is the main basis for the counter appeal to reinstate helicopters- they counted the same event in the same exact testing ground in years prior and now decided not to count it this year, and this inconsistency could decide which team goes to nationals. I am not affiliated with any New Jersey teams and I believe that if the event was counted under the same conditions in years prior, then it must be counted this year. Additionally, in the helicopters rules it clearly states that deciding whether a helicopter is stuck is up to the event supervisor's discretion, so it is not breaking the rules if the event supervisor is less strict on what they consider stuck than supervisors at other competitions.
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby antoine_ego » March 8th, 2017, 6:50 pm

sci_oly wrote:
Let me first say I am not affiliated with any of the teams in question. I disagree for many reasons. First of all, it's not like all the teams had their helicopters stuck in the rafters. I'm not sure exactly how many teams did not get their helicopters stuck, but evidently, enough didn't as medals were still awarded to the 6 teams with the best times. If only say, 1 or 2 teams had not gotten their helicopters stuck, I would understand why the event would be canceled. However, at least 6 teams were able to get legitimate scores, and it's very likely that more teams were able to get legitimate scores as well, so it's baffling why the event was canceled. Furthermore, it has been rumored that Monty, a contender for nationals, performed quite well in this event, and it's unfair to completely disregard their performance in this event, considered they performed a lot better relative to WWP.

Secondly, I believe that the issue of getting the helicopter stuck in the rafters can be avoided by the builders. Let me first say that while I am not at all experienced at this event, teams undoubtedly prepared for this type of situation to arise, and altered their design accordingly to overcome the challenges that this situation posed. This is evidently in the fact that AT LEAST 6 teams were able to get legitimate times. I personally watched the helicopters event, and saw many teams able to avoid getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. Ultimately, the builders themselves are at fault for getting their helicopters stuck in the rafters. While I am not disregarding the fact that a helicopter can get stuck in the rafters purely by chance, preventative measures could have been taken by teams.

The commenter above stated ", wouldn't any attempt to reinstate the event be a blatant disregard of the spirit of the event?". Quite frankly, not reinstating this event would disregard the spirit of the entire competition. In my opinion, it is blasphemous that this event by canceled just because some teams got frustrated that their helicopters got stuck in the rafters; if other teams were able to not get their helicopters stuck, why couldn't you? For the overall fairness of the competition, I really hope this event gets reinstated.


Full disclosure, I've never really done Helicopters, but, being in Massachusetts, I am no way affiliated with the teams in question.

I disagree with your disagreement. I am going to quote from the Soinc website.
Soinc wrote:As printed on the inside back cover of Science Olympiad Rules Manuals and on each page of the Science Olympiad Rules, all participants in the Science Olympiad experience should abide by the Code of Ethics and General Rules, which includes the Science Olympiad Pledges for Students, Coaches, Parents and Event Supervisors.

Clearly, this was not done. The ES didn't abide by the fact that the Helicopter must be supported by the rotors.

Secondly, getting stuck in the rafters is something that I honestly can't really figure out a decent way to avoid. Granted, I am by no means an expert, but considering the huge variations in ceilings, I think it's safe to assume that it would be enormously difficult. Additionally, having teams have to figure out a way to avoid the rafters goes against the spirit of the event itself. To me, the point of Helicopters is to make a craft that can use rubber band powered rotors to support itself for as long as possible, not figuring out some way to get around the rafters.

There is really no good way to get out of this mess. Someone is going to feel cheated, and someone is going to feel relieved at this mistake on the ESs part. The only solution would have been to run the event correctly in the first place. But, considering that the rules were not followed, I feel that it was the best choice in the spirit of the integrity of the competition to discount the event from the rankings.
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby maxxxxx » March 8th, 2017, 6:53 pm

This situation is becoming very reminiscent of Ohio last year, in the sense that everyone is commenting their opinion while we still don't know all of the details. I would gladly invite everyone to hold off on arguing about this until we hear from the actual arbitrator(as was the case last year) or directly from NJSO, with their decision and ALL of the details that led to it. There's a reason why tournaments have actual arbitration committees, and the decision and facts should come from them.
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby BuildingFriend » March 8th, 2017, 7:10 pm

maxxxxx wrote:This situation is becoming very reminiscent of Ohio last year, in the sense that everyone is commenting their opinion while we still don't know all of the details. I would gladly invite everyone to hold off on arguing about this until we hear from the actual arbitrator(as was the case last year) or directly from NJSO, with their decision and ALL of the details that led to it. There's a reason why tournaments have actual arbitration committees, and the decision and facts should come from them.


I agree- only thing to really do is improve next year as Helicopter is still an event (probably)
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby windu34 » March 8th, 2017, 8:58 pm

Unome wrote:It's only March and we already have a controversy on our hands? (though at least this is nowhere near as big as Ohio last year)

Gotta love controversy.

I'd give my POV, but it's the same as many others above and i don't have any new points to bring to the discussion.
I agree it was the right call to remove helicopters from overall scores while still awarding medals.
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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby noobforce » March 10th, 2017, 6:40 pm

I was a competitor in Helicopters this past Tuesday. Here are my thoughts.

What was happening with these "stuck" helicopters was that while they were "hooked" into the rafters, they were still spinning.
Image

Regardless of their top rotor was freespinning or stationary, the top rotor did not rotate independently of the motorstick or the helicopter because it was stuck to the rafter. However, the bottom rotors of all the teams whose helicopter was "stuck" were still spinning. So the helicopter was still moving in place. The helicopter would only fall when the bottom rotor stopped spinning, demonstrating that the bottom rotor was still contributing to lift.

Now to the original question, do you stop timing when this helicopter becomes "stuck"?

The official rules state timing must stop when the rotors no longer support the weight of the helicopter. With nothing else explicitly stated in the rules, I believe there are two main interpretations of this rule (of course, not official). One could argue that the rotors must fully support the weight of the helicopter, while another person could argue the rotors only need to provide a fraction of the lift needed to support the weight (the rest of the force could be provided by an external force). The rules do not state the rotors must be providing the only force keeping the helicopter in the air. In this specific incident, using the latter interpretation, these "stuck" helicopters should still continue to be timed because the bottom rotor was still contributing to lift, but the rafter provided the support needed to keep the helicopter afloat.

Obviously, the first rule interpretation aligns with the spirit of the event, and the final interpretation comes down the event supervisor. The event supervisor seemed to follow the second rule interpretation (he explicitly told me that because the bottom rotors were still spinning, they still contributed to lift forces), which is technically correct, so I will support that ruling. As such, I do believe the helicopters results should be included in team scoring.

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Re: New Jersey 2017

Postby lumosityfan » March 10th, 2017, 7:08 pm

While those are very great points, I think the main problem is, at least in my opinion, is that while the bottom rotors might still be providing lift, they don't actually provide enough force to keep it afloat if you will. The main idea of that rule would be that teams could not take advantage of rafters and just get their helicopters stuck there.
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