Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Maddie J
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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by Maddie J » February 15th, 2017, 8:14 pm

LE post was 8.5 cm from the tip of the motor stick, TE was 19.7 cm
Height of wing post LE: 6.0 cm TE 5.8 cm (length to insert and top of CF measured)
31 cm between LE of Wing to LE of Stablizer
Motor stick 16 inches
39 cm from prop to back hook
41 cm Prop to tail boom insert, 19 cm total tail boom
60 cm total length prop to end of tail boom
Weight 6.3 grams without motor, clay was added to top of motor stick left side to get 7.5 grams

Rubber 17 inches .65" rubber from kit

Winds: 20 of 15:1 to start, increased to 50 of 15.1, but no change in time, height, etc. No flights over 10 seconds so many turns left!

Plane just doesn't fly: glides to a halt.

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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by Maddie J » February 15th, 2017, 8:19 pm

I don't think we can change our prop...it's glued in & as best we could via the instructions. WE are beginners, that's for sure! We've been doing tests on homemade Chuck Markos plane design before trying to work on this very hard, complicated kit. We've had many breakages on all the parts, & we've tried follow the instructions as best as possible, but it's confusing. :evil:

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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by smrt1337 » February 15th, 2017, 8:28 pm

Maddie J wrote:I don't think we can change our prop...it's glued in & as best we could via the instructions. WE are beginners, that's for sure! We've been doing tests on homemade Chuck Markos plane design before trying to work on this very hard, complicated kit. We've had many breakages on all the parts, & we've tried follow the instructions as best as possible, but it's confusing. :evil:
When the plane was stalling did it climb at all?

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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by hogger » February 15th, 2017, 9:08 pm

The plane is gliding well, it is not stalling at all. Here are a few things I would do.
- Make sure the balance point (center of gravity) is about 3/8 of an inch inside the wing leading edge. Do this with rubber motor attached. Reread the instruction on how to do this if you are not sure.
- More importantly the wing angle of incidence should be raised. This is the angle of the plane that forms the wing relative to the plane of the stabilizer. You can increase it by raising the leading edge wing posts or lowering trailing edge wing posts. This should be quite easy with the sliding tubes design of this kit. Also the stabilizer angle can be changed with shim. Keep raising the angle until you get a good lift. When you do it too much, the plane will start exhibiting stalling flight. This is when it climbs for a little bit and then followed by a dive. When this happens, you need to reduce the angle of incidence.
- Lastly, as previous posts suggest, you need to wind a lot more. It looks like in the video that there is a lot more winding you can do to get more power and potentially more lift. Winding technique is one of the key to do well in this competition. You should be able to do a bit more than 50 winds of 15:1.

The plane is turning to the left correctly so there is nothing wrong there. Hopefully those 3 things above will get you going in the right direction. Good luck.

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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by jander14indoor » February 16th, 2017, 4:01 am

The turn looked right, no stalling in that short flight. That airplane is capable of MUCH longer flights, easily reaching the ceiling. It might need a few trim tweaks, but it is capable.
Assuming you are at minimum weight, you just don't have enough power. Even if you aren't at minimum weight, you need even MORE power.
How do yo get that, you need to wind HARDER. A 0.065 motor that length should have well north of 1250 turns, probably well north of 1500. You may need a thicker motor too, but you'll still need to wind it HARD.
Now, you may find trim issues as you wind harder, so you might want to go in steps. But I'd start with a big first step. 50% more turns, even 100%. You haven't begun to stress that motor yet.

Once it starts climbing with more power you'll probably find some trim issues, but right now you need to focus on winding harder.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI

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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by Maddie J » February 16th, 2017, 6:51 am

hogger wrote:The plane is gliding well, it is not stalling at all. Here are a few things I would do.
- Make sure the balance point (center of gravity) is about 3/8 of an inch inside the wing leading edge. Do this with rubber motor attached. Reread the instruction on how to do this if you are not sure.
- More importantly the wing angle of incidence should be raised. This is the angle of the plane that forms the wing relative to the plane of the stabilizer. You can increase it by raising the leading edge wing posts or lowering trailing edge wing posts. This should be quite easy with the sliding tubes design of this kit. Also the stabilizer angle can be changed with shim. Keep raising the angle until you get a good lift. When you do it too much, the plane will start exhibiting stalling flight. This is when it climbs for a little bit and then followed by a dive. When this happens, you need to reduce the angle of incidence.
- Lastly, as previous posts suggest, you need to wind a lot more. It looks like in the video that there is a lot more winding you can do to get more power and potentially more lift. Winding technique is one of the key to do well in this competition. You should be able to do a bit more than 50 winds of 15:1.

The plane is turning to the left correctly so there is nothing wrong there. Hopefully those 3 things above will get you going in the right direction. Good luck.
We worked on the CG to be 1/2 in to 3/8 in in front of the Rear Wing Post--this was based on the instructions provided. So, it's confusing for you to say the Wing Leading Edge....

So, we should increase the wing incidence & if we get to where it is stalling, to lower it? We'll try raising the angle to get a good lift.

I see a trend on the winding--we're so afraid of breaking it. We'll reread the winding technique & see if that too helps. Thank you!

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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by JasperKota » February 16th, 2017, 6:57 am

Maddie J wrote:
We worked on the CG to be 1/2 in to 3/8 in in front of the Rear Wing Post--this was based on the instructions provided. So, it's confusing for you to say the Wing Leading Edge....

So, we should increase the wing incidence & if we get to where it is stalling, to lower it? We'll try raising the angle to get a good lift.

I see a trend on the winding--we're so afraid of breaking it. We'll reread the winding technique & see if that too helps. Thank you!
Yes, increase the wing incidence and if it starts stalling either lower it a bit or move the CG more towards the front (I find it easier to just lower the front wing post).

Don't be afraid of the winder breaking. It will not break. As for the rubber, if you lubricate it and stretch it while winding (have the person winding stand like three four feet away and slowly walk closer as more winds are put in). It will not break, unless the knot is not tied well or you wind way too much. The rubber Dave provides can handle 1500+ winds (100 on a 15:1 winder).
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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by Maddie J » February 16th, 2017, 7:00 am

jander14indoor wrote:The turn looked right, no stalling in that short flight. That airplane is capable of MUCH longer flights, easily reaching the ceiling. It might need a few trim tweaks, but it is capable.
Assuming you are at minimum weight, you just don't have enough power. Even if you aren't at minimum weight, you need even MORE power.
How do yo get that, you need to wind HARDER. A 0.065 motor that length should have well north of 1250 turns, probably well north of 1500. You may need a thicker motor too, but you'll still need to wind it HARD.
Now, you may find trim issues as you wind harder, so you might want to go in steps. But I'd start with a big first step. 50% more turns, even 100%. You haven't begun to stress that motor yet.

Once it starts climbing with more power you'll probably find some trim issues, but right now you need to focus on winding harder.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI
Our choices on the motor are limited to our kit--052”, .058” or .065". We have only tested the .065", we just run out of time to adjust everything trying to make it fly! We have only through next week before our regionals. We've failed to do well in our last event, that's why we are trying to work with the kit. It's just confusing to understand some of the instructions & pictures.

We'll try to the winds first this next time. Thank you!

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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by SPP SciO » February 16th, 2017, 7:32 am

jander14indoor wrote:The turn looked right, no stalling in that short flight. That airplane is capable of MUCH longer flights, easily reaching the ceiling. It might need a few trim tweaks, but it is capable.
Assuming you are at minimum weight, you just don't have enough power. Even if you aren't at minimum weight, you need even MORE power.
How do yo get that, you need to wind HARDER. A 0.065 motor that length should have well north of 1250 turns, probably well north of 1500. You may need a thicker motor too, but you'll still need to wind it HARD.
Now, you may find trim issues as you wind harder, so you might want to go in steps. But I'd start with a big first step. 50% more turns, even 100%. You haven't begun to stress that motor yet.

Once it starts climbing with more power you'll probably find some trim issues, but right now you need to focus on winding harder.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI
Can you elaborate on the concept of "hard winding" - I feel as though this is the barrier to entry that's preventing my students from success. We ordered Freedom Flight kits earlier in the season, and the students have also build a few planes from scratch. The construction, while far from perfect, looks decent, and the weight is always less than 8 grams. However, during the limited time we have to actually fly the planes, they're not getting them to climb.

They've read about the idea of hard winding before, but they seem to break an inordinate amount of motors. They've been using 3-in1 brand silicone lubrication, and the o-rings and rubber provided in the kit, measured to close to 1.5g, along with a 15:1 winder. Still - no lift, even if they manage to give it 100 winder turns. Of course, the plane touches down a few seconds later with nearly all winds still on it.

Personally, I know nothing about this event, and I've been very hands-off, letting the students experiment themselves. But, we've had 2 invitationals without success, and an awful lot of broken propellers. I really doubt the issue is the design, components or construction of the plane itself; I suspect it's competency of the flyers. I'd like to try building and flying my own over winter break to get a little experience I can pass on. Are there any recommended youtube videos which show proper motor winding / flying technique?
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Re: Freedom Flight Kit plane won't fly

Post by JasperKota » February 16th, 2017, 8:49 am

Are they using the suggested initial settings for the FF plane? It should've come in a half sheet of paper included with the kit (suggested angle of incidence, COG, etc.)

I believe if you search "NC Science Olympiad Wright Stuff" on youtube, you'll come across some helpful videos for lubricating and winding, making motor hooks etc.
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