Thermodynamics B/C

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby EastStroudsburg13 » Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:24 am

It is possible that people are not as active currently on the question marathons because it is still September. Give it time; the marathons will pick up in activity as the competitions get closer.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby raxu » Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:03 pm

We are probably not getting aerogel, just because the marginal benefit isn't that high. A device using normal material probably works :)

In fact, remember that a device with no insulation can be good too! You can get the water, dump all the ice water in, and use a graph to predict the temperature. Heat retention score should be slightly negative, so you get out of 55 - not bad! Just score 25% higher than everyone and you medal :lol:
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby WhatScience? » Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:32 pm

I will be trying to get at least some aerogel for my device. But seriously building something nearly airtight that is really small, could work.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby Ashernoel » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:26 pm

http://www.capitolscientific.com/Thermo ... Pack-of-25

These are 250 ml beakers, but are they allowed?
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby WhatScience? » Fri Sep 15, 2017 10:50 pm

Ashernoel wrote:http://www.capitolscientific.com/Thermo-Scientific-Orion-ASB250-Beaker-Material-Plastic-250mL-Pack-of-25

These are 250 ml beakers, but are they allowed?


They might be. I expect that they would be looking for glass but if plastic is allowed definitely the better option as less chance of breaking yet higher insulation.

I do not know why you are buying a pack of 25 though. I think that you might be blowing a bit into your budget when the saved money (which would be over a $100) could help you buy insulation.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby chalker » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:11 pm

WhatScience? wrote:
Ashernoel wrote:http://www.capitolscientific.com/Thermo-Scientific-Orion-ASB250-Beaker-Material-Plastic-250mL-Pack-of-25

These are 250 ml beakers, but are they allowed?


They might be. I expect that they would be looking for glass but if plastic is allowed definitely the better option as less chance of breaking yet higher insulation.
.



As always, this is not the place for official statements / clarifications...... That said, for those of you who have been around for a while might be able to dig up an old copy of the thermo rules from 5 years ago and notice that in those rules we specific the material the beaker is made out of... however we don't in the current rules. As I typically advise, general rule #1 applies in many situations like this.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby Ashernoel » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:18 pm

The rules use the language of "standard" with "~1.4x H:B ratio". This design of beaker is not the "standard," so I assume it would be easily disqualified. ://

edit: I can't find the specs of them, so when I get my hands on a model I'll update whether or not they have a ~1.4 H:B ratio. If they do, it would be much harder for a super to reject their usage.

Edit2: The risks with relying on a rare beaker design are still pretty big, so I'll try to submit a FAQ question when possible.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby wzhang5460 » Fri Sep 15, 2017 11:56 pm

I'm pretty sure you can use plastic, in the rules it says a 250 ml beaker glass or plastic.

Maybe just find one that is "standard" 250 ml and plastic?
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby WhatScience? » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:36 am

Ya I do feel plastic would be allowed cause the spirit of the event is to find a good design with good insulating materials. This is the entire event and this is simply out thinking your opponents which is what sci Olympiad builds are all about. Looking at towers for example, you want to use the best wood, the best glue, and the best design. This is a similar concept.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby retired1 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:17 pm

It looks like it might be OK size wise. It does have a bit more taper than the normal beaker.
Don't be led astray by the brand Thermo. This is just a plain plastic beaker . There are a number of places that you can buy just a few plastic beakers rather than 25. Some schools will have some in the chem dept.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby wzhang5460 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:09 pm

Does the beaker's diameter have to be exactly 1.4 times the height? I found some that are a little bit more than 1.4
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby chalker » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:23 pm

chalker wrote:
As always, this is not the place for official statements / clarifications...... That said, for those of you who have been around for a while might be able to dig up an old copy of the thermo rules from 5 years ago and notice that in those rules we specific the material the beaker is made out of... however we don't in the current rules. As I typically advise, general rule #1 applies in many situations like this.


Oops.. my bad. I just realize we inserted the glass or plastic language back into the rules this year. Still, I'd encourage everyone to think of general rule #1.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby chalker » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:24 pm

wzhang5460 wrote:Does the beaker's diameter have to be exactly 1.4 times the height? I found some that are a little bit more than 1.4


Looks carefully at the rules. ~ means approximately.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby Ashernoel » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:42 pm

According to Wikipedia, standard low form 1.4x beakers are defined as having straight sides except for philips beakers.

So because the rules only allow this standard beaker form, event supers can deduct for Phillips beakers and the super small beaker I posted earlier.

Straight sides.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby wzhang5460 » Sat Sep 16, 2017 7:53 pm

chalker wrote:
wzhang5460 wrote:Does the beaker's diameter have to be exactly 1.4 times the height? I found some that are a little bit more than 1.4


Looks carefully at the rules. ~ means approximately.


Ok, Thanks
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