Thermodynamics B/C

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WhatScience?
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby WhatScience? » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:27 am

arv101 wrote:10. Which of the following is not a type of thermodynamic system?
a. Open
b. Insulated
c. Closed
d. isolated

Why is it C and not B ?( This was from a test I found online, did they screw up or am I missing something big)?


A closed system is DEFINITELY a thing. Idk what they are doing....where did you find this stuff? (Probably amateurtryingtoappearknowledgeable.com)
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby arv101 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:31 am

Idk some test I found online but good looks like I am not losing my mind lmao! :D
What did the thermometer say to the graduated cylinder?

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby arv101 » Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:32 am

WhatScience? Do you want to run that thermo mock test again? I'll try to advertise to get more people!
What did the thermometer say to the graduated cylinder?

"You may have graduated, but I have many degrees"

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Thermodynamics B/C

Postby MariaK » Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:04 am

For the graphs can we have more than one plot on one graph?
For example can we have 4 of these
https://www.soinc.org/sites/default/fil ... 111008.pdf

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby aniSUKSatCHEM » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:26 pm

What is the difference between Aspen aerogel and silica aerogel? I see that both are good insulators but which one is better?

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby Alex-RCHS » Tue Dec 12, 2017 11:53 pm

aniSUKSatCHEM wrote:What is the difference between Aspen aerogel and silica aerogel? I see that both are good insulators but which one is better?

Aspen is in blanket form. When buying this kind of aerogel, check that it doesn’t have fiberglass in it, which the rules call “prohibited”.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby arv101 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:00 am

Where can I get more real thermodynamics/keep the heat tests? Like from a real competition? Anyone want to trade,hit me up?
What did the thermometer say to the graduated cylinder?

"You may have graduated, but I have many degrees"

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby arv101 » Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:04 am

MariaK wrote:For the graphs can we have more than one plot on one graph?
For example can we have 4 of these
https://www.soinc.org/sites/default/fil ... 111008.pdf

Yeah, I am kind of confused too, if we have say 4 plots or 'lines' on one graph is that considered 4 "graphs" or just one graph? Also the rules say the graph must span at least one variable, would Temperature vs Cooling Time be okay? Can someone please explain!?! :o
What did the thermometer say to the graduated cylinder?

"You may have graduated, but I have many degrees"

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby sciencekid7 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 7:53 am

Rule 4.d says, "... Teams may utilize their own thermometers to measure the starting water temperature in their beakers."

Rule 4.f says, "Teams will use their graphs and/or tables to calculate the temperature of the water in their beaker at the end of the cooling time. They must provide the supervisors with their estimate prior to beginning part II."

In our invitationals, the part II written test begins before the part I device test because of the staggered nature of the part I device test. We begin part II, go part way through it, and get called up to do the part I device test using our 5 min time. We then go back to the part II written test. Reading it as written, we could be asked to provide the estimated temperature before we are allowed to measure the starting water temperature in the beakers. If so, what is the point of allowing us to measure the temperature? I assume that 4.f means that we have to predict the temperature before going back to the written test. Could you clarify?

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby mnparhy » Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:51 pm

From the rule book, my understanding is the following sequence happens for any team as an ordered sequence in time. Could some one please confirm if my understanding is correct?

1. A team may already be doing Part II written test till they are called for part I device testing
2. ES tells the team experiment parameters (temperature of water, volume of water, room temperature)
3. 5 min time is given to set up or modify device. Team starts temp prediction, but they are not required to give their final prediction to ES at this stage. Device is checked for construction violations
4. Team is given the set amount of water as announced, and ES records the start time.
5. Team pours the set amount of water into 2 beakers (but its not team's responsibility to measure if the specified amount of water is in the beaker - means they are not required to use a finely graduated cylinder).
6. Team puts one of the beaker into the device, and close the device. Team uses their own thermometer to measure the starting temperature of the beaker
7. Team finishes their calculation. Team gives the prediction for the final temperature of the internal beaker at the end of cooling period to ES
8. Team goes to do Part II written test, and called after end of their cooling period
9. ES measures temperature of internal and external beaker, reviews part I recorded data with the team.
10. Team goes back to part II written test.

Thanks.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby Unome » Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:55 pm

sciencekid7 wrote:Rule 4.d says, "... Teams may utilize their own thermometers to measure the starting water temperature in their beakers."

Rule 4.f says, "Teams will use their graphs and/or tables to calculate the temperature of the water in their beaker at the end of the cooling time. They must provide the supervisors with their estimate prior to beginning part II."

In our invitationals, the part II written test begins before the part I device test because of the staggered nature of the part I device test. We begin part II, go part way through it, and get called up to do the part I device test using our 5 min time. We then go back to the part II written test. Reading it as written, we could be asked to provide the estimated temperature before we are allowed to measure the starting water temperature in the beakers. If so, what is the point of allowing us to measure the temperature? I assume that 4.f means that we have to predict the temperature before going back to the written test. Could you clarify?

The ordering described by mnparhy is more typical for this event (although, it would probably be easier to check part I records with teams as they turn in their tests). With the method you describe, the likely best place for the estimated temperature would be for teams to write it down on a blank on the front of their test or such (which is why using the other method of running the event works better in most cases).
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby BasuSiddha23 » Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:31 pm

Hello, I was wondering about people's scores now that we are getting into the season. What ending temperatures are you getting after thirty minutes at 60 degrees Celsius? If you have tested with a different temperature, make sure you comment that too!
Thanks
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby sciencekid7 » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:42 am

mnparhy wrote:From the rule book, my understanding is the following sequence happens for any team as an ordered sequence in time. Could some one please confirm if my understanding is correct?

1. A team may already be doing Part II written test till they are called for part I device testing
2. ES tells the team experiment parameters (temperature of water, volume of water, room temperature)
3. 5 min time is given to set up or modify device. Team starts temp prediction, but they are not required to give their final prediction to ES at this stage. Device is checked for construction violations
4. Team is given the set amount of water as announced, and ES records the start time.
5. Team pours the set amount of water into 2 beakers (but its not team's responsibility to measure if the specified amount of water is in the beaker - means they are not required to use a finely graduated cylinder).
6. Team puts one of the beaker into the device, and close the device. Team uses their own thermometer to measure the starting temperature of the beaker
7. Team finishes their calculation. Team gives the prediction for the final temperature of the internal beaker at the end of cooling period to ES
8. Team goes to do Part II written test, and called after end of their cooling period
9. ES measures temperature of internal and external beaker, reviews part I recorded data with the team.
10. Team goes back to part II written test.

Thanks.


This is the sequence we have seen as well and we were allowed to measure before giving the prediction, but I am concerned that other proctors may not follow this sequence. Rule 4.f says, "They must provide the supervisors with their estimate prior to beginning part II." There is no provision there to say that the team may have already started part II before getting to part I. A proctor could insist on getting a prediction at the time of impound based on this rule. It would have been clearer if the rule had said "They must provide the supervisors with their estimate prior to beginning part II or by the end of their 5 min setup period." or something to that effect.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby Coach Marz » Tue Dec 19, 2017 10:58 am

For all of you talking about Aero gels. I was the Event Supervisor this past week at an invitational. I saw numerous devices with Aero gels, some with beads and others more solid forms. I am not saying you shouldn't use them, but overall I was not impressed. The beads were messy, and the construction and use of them is not great for this style of event with beaker to be removed and device to be inspected. The standard styrofoam did just as well, OR BETTER, than any "fancy/expensive" box. In the end, those students that were most prepared, tested their devices, had all their graphs and charts did the best.

In regard to the prior statement about SEQUENCE.
In larger invtitationals/ regionals it would almost be impossible to set everyone up and get the test out with sufficient time to take it.
This was the case at this past invitational. We gave out the exam after the 5 minute setup.
I then walked around the room, and one-by-one put water in each of the beakers, and students used a thermometer to test the external temperature of their beaker.
I then gave each team 3 minutes to make their prediction after measuring the external beaker.
All of the tests were collected at the same time at the end of the exam.
The event ran very smoothly in this manner and everyone was given the exact same time to do both Part I and Part II.

While an event supervisor COULD ask for a prediction PRIOR to starting, I don't think they should. There is a drastic drop off in temperature from the water source to your beaker on the table. If this happens, I would request the use of thermometer as stated in the rules to make a solid prediciton.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Postby vb » Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:39 pm

Coach Marz wrote:For all of you talking about Aero gels. I was the Event Supervisor this past week at an invitational. I saw numerous devices with Aero gels, some with beads and others more solid forms. I am not saying you shouldn't use them, but overall I was not impressed. The beads were messy, and the construction and use of them is not great for this style of event with beaker to be removed and device to be inspected. The standard styrofoam did just as well, OR BETTER, than any "fancy/expensive" box. In the end, those students that were most prepared, tested their devices, had all their graphs and charts did the best.

In regard to the prior statement about SEQUENCE.
In larger invtitationals/ regionals it would almost be impossible to set everyone up and get the test out with sufficient time to take it.
This was the case at this past invitational. We gave out the exam after the 5 minute setup.
I then walked around the room, and one-by-one put water in each of the beakers, and students used a thermometer to test the external temperature of their beaker.
I then gave each team 3 minutes to make their prediction after measuring the external beaker.
All of the tests were collected at the same time at the end of the exam.
The event ran very smoothly in this manner and everyone was given the exact same time to do both Part I and Part II.

While an event supervisor COULD ask for a prediction PRIOR to starting, I don't think they should. There is a drastic drop off in temperature from the water source to your beaker on the table. If this happens, I would request the use of thermometer as stated in the rules to make a solid prediciton.


Do students estimate the temperature of of both the beakers (inside and outside)?
Thanks,
VB


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