New York 2018

GoffWalrus
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Re: New York 2018

Postby GoffWalrus » April 16th, 2018, 6:35 am

I didn't mean in that sense. I hope the best for the Eagle Hill program as you guys have a lot of talent :D
Last edited by GoffWalrus on April 16th, 2018, 9:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Unome
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Re: New York 2018

Postby Unome » April 16th, 2018, 7:06 am

Once again good job Goff, great job Gelinas even though dale(a kid on you b team) obviously built you a team tower because you wouldn't have chosen tower as one of you events to not do if you could place 2nd at states and had placed at nats the year before but that's for another time. Ps sorry this is long but it's worth reading.
If I remember correctly, Gelinas chose their particular events to drop at regionals primarily on the basis of schedule conflicts. I would recommend against making baseless accusations, or at the very least not having strong evidence.
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Re: New York 2018

Postby drcubbin » April 16th, 2018, 7:25 am

On a more positive note, like so many others I would like to congratulate both the Gelinas and Goff teams on their incredible wins. It is only our third year at Nationals (and third full year in SciOly), but it was such a close race none of us had any idea of where it was going as the schools were being announced. The Bay Academy would like to wish both Gelinas and Goff big wins at Nationals! And on a side note, I was overwhelmed by the thanks and congratulations we received from so many coaches and their students after the ceremony as well as the "champion caliber" congratulatory e-mail I received from the Gelinas team. It all meant so much to us being one of the new kids on the block. Best to all and we'll see you next year :)

MattH2018
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Re: New York 2018

Postby MattH2018 » April 16th, 2018, 7:50 am

Umm... does it really matter who wrote this? You let tiny little Goff overtake you. This should be a learning experience for all of you.
It matters quite a bit. This is a public place. If a user speaks about their team it reflects on the entire school.
To add on to this, it reflects on FM high school as well, which we are not pleased about. I just want to add a little perspective from our point of view. I think what fmschools is trying to say is that the Eagle Hill kids, particularly the returners from last year, have been frustrated the whole year. That being said, posting that is not a productive way to vent their frustration and hopefully whoever posted it will apologize for some of the things they said, if not here then to their teammates in private. After last year, when they won states, both of their coaches quit and stopped working with the team altogether. They had less access to the school and their coaches were completely new to Science Olympiad. From what we saw, however, they were still working hard to try to make nats. As for the Gelinas tower accusations which Unome already touched on, I know that some of the Eagle Hill kids talk to a few of the Gelinas kids, and they did have their concerns about the tower situation. While I don't think the accusations are baseless, I will say that they are not appropriate, particularly in this setting, and there are many tower builders at Gelinas, Murphy, and Ward Melville who are all incredible builders.
That being said, congrats to Gelinas and Goff from F-M, and we're looking forward to representing NY at nats with you guys and Columbia!

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Re: New York 2018

Postby wzhang5460 » April 16th, 2018, 8:58 am

The accusations are not baseless, as Dale did build the tower for previous competitions. However he only gave us pointers, me and jed built the tower with dales advice. also, we only dropped towers at regionals because of a conflict.
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Re: New York 2018

Postby nicholasmaurer » April 16th, 2018, 9:07 am

Umm... does it really matter who wrote this? You let tiny little Goff overtake you. This should be a learning experience for all of you.
Congratulations to Gelinas and Goff!

Regarding Eagle Hill: Coaching changes are always tough - SO has a steep learning curve, particularly for teams that are very competitive. Additionally, even the best teams can have an off year or have bad luck at their State Tournament. I would encourage you to give your new coaches time to adjust, reach out to Div C alumni for advice and coaching, and get some more parents involved to support the program. Each year starts fresh. In the meantime, keep your heads up, wish the best of luck to the teams representing NY at the National Tournament, and start getting ready for next year.
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swagmcswag1223
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Re: New York 2018

Postby swagmcswag1223 » April 16th, 2018, 9:50 am

Personally, I feel that it is not right for Eagle Hill to blame it on their coaches or members (the so called “bad 8th grader”). We are in the same situation as Eagle hill, meaning we lost our coaches as well, and we still were still able to pull off first place. I do agree, however with their appeal for battery buggy because it was able to pass invitationals and regionals prior to states. That was an unfair decision and I believe it should have been able to run and compete. They were not notified at these tournaments of the unlabeled batteries and were not able to fix them because of this.
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Re: New York 2018

Postby GoffWalrus » April 16th, 2018, 10:01 am

Umm... does it really matter who wrote this? You let tiny little Goff overtake you. This should be a learning experience for all of you.
It matters quite a bit. This is a public place. If a user speaks about their team it reflects on the entire school.
Thank you, I can see this point of view. Hopefully Eagle Hill does great next year :)

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Re: New York 2018

Postby nicholasmaurer » April 16th, 2018, 10:01 am

Personally, I feel that it is not right for Eagle Hill to blame it on their coaches or members (the so called “bad 8th grader”). We are in the same situation as Eagle hill, meaning we lost our coaches as well, and we still were still able to pull off first place. I do agree, however with their appeal for battery buggy because it was able to pass invitationals and regionals prior to states. That was an unfair decision and I believe it should have been able to run and compete. They were not notified at these tournaments of the unlabeled batteries and were not able to fix them because of this.
I think my point was that blame doesn't seem a productive use of time, and spreading blame in a public forum is something typically regretted later. Having new coaches if unquestionably difficult, although it's not an insurmountable barrier. The teams that advanced deserve congratulations and the support of their fellow NY teams. For those that didn't qualify, next year is a clean start.
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Re: New York 2018

Postby windu34 » April 16th, 2018, 10:10 am

I do agree, however with their appeal for battery buggy because it was able to pass invitationals and regionals prior to states. That was an unfair decision and I believe it should have been able to run and compete. They were not notified at these tournaments of the unlabeled batteries and were not able to fix them because of this.
This is not true. Just because supervisors at prior regional/invitational tournaments do not penalize for something does NOT mean it is okay and therefore legal at future competitions. Different supervisors interpret the rules in different ways and some are more strict on rules than others. If the supervisor can point to a specific line in the rules that results in a penalty, then it is 100% a fair and justified ruling. When I have supervised build events in the past, I am definitely slightly more lenient at regionals and invitationals and choose to keep in mind the intent of the rules rather than a strict interpretation, but at a State tournament, you can bet I will penalize for every little detail and withhold a very strict interpretation. The SO battery policy is VERY CLEAR and it is reiterated in the Battery Buggy rules. It is the responsibility of the team to ensure their device falls within the parameters of the rules and it should have been as easy as having a team member or coach go through the rules and check your device before competition to make sure the competitor didn't overlook anything as seemingly trivial as this.
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Re: New York 2018

Postby ScottMaurer19 » April 16th, 2018, 10:24 am

I do agree, however with their appeal for battery buggy because it was able to pass invitationals and regionals prior to states. That was an unfair decision and I believe it should have been able to run and compete. They were not notified at these tournaments of the unlabeled batteries and were not able to fix them because of this.
This is not true. Just because supervisors at prior regional/invitational tournaments do not penalize for something does NOT mean it is okay and therefore legal at future competitions. Different supervisors interpret the rules in different ways and some are more strict on rules than others. If the supervisor can point to a specific line in the rules that results in a penalty, then it is 100% a fair and justified ruling. When I have supervised build events in the past, I am definitely slightly more lenient at regionals and invitationals and choose to keep in mind the intent of the rules rather than a strict interpretation, but at a State tournament, you can bet I will penalize for every little detail and withhold a very strict interpretation. The SO battery policy is VERY CLEAR and it is reiterated in the Battery Buggy rules. It is the responsibility of the team to ensure their device falls within the parameters of the rules and it should have been as easy as having a team member or coach go through the rules and check your device before competition to make sure the competitor didn't overlook anything as seemingly trivial as this.
I had the same thoughts. What is weird this year is that the battery policy doesn't not say that labels are required (I was about to post something very similar when I decided to check...) although it has in years past
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Re: New York 2018

Postby windu34 » April 16th, 2018, 10:32 am

I do agree, however with their appeal for battery buggy because it was able to pass invitationals and regionals prior to states. That was an unfair decision and I believe it should have been able to run and compete. They were not notified at these tournaments of the unlabeled batteries and were not able to fix them because of this.
This is not true. Just because supervisors at prior regional/invitational tournaments do not penalize for something does NOT mean it is okay and therefore legal at future competitions. Different supervisors interpret the rules in different ways and some are more strict on rules than others. If the supervisor can point to a specific line in the rules that results in a penalty, then it is 100% a fair and justified ruling. When I have supervised build events in the past, I am definitely slightly more lenient at regionals and invitationals and choose to keep in mind the intent of the rules rather than a strict interpretation, but at a State tournament, you can bet I will penalize for every little detail and withhold a very strict interpretation. The SO battery policy is VERY CLEAR and it is reiterated in the Battery Buggy rules. It is the responsibility of the team to ensure their device falls within the parameters of the rules and it should have been as easy as having a team member or coach go through the rules and check your device before competition to make sure the competitor didn't overlook anything as seemingly trivial as this.
I had the same thoughts. What is weird this year is that the battery policy doesn't not say that labels are required (I was about to post something very similar when I decided to check...) although it has in years past
Really? Thats disappointing...good thing that Battery Buggy rule 3.b. states: "Electrical energy used by the vehicle for any purpose, including propulsion, must be stored in a maximum of 8 (eight) AA 1.5-volt common, commercially available batteries, as labeled by the manufacturer."
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wzhang5460
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Re: New York 2018

Postby wzhang5460 » April 16th, 2018, 10:42 am

What about the use of "as" in the rules? Does this imply that if it is not labelled by the maker, it is fine? Next year please get rid of "as" since it is confusing. Thanks for the insight.
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Mystery Arch. 2018: 7th
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CMS AC
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Re: New York 2018

Postby CMS AC » April 16th, 2018, 10:48 am

I'm not trying to take sides or anything, but if it's not labeled, then what would you do windu? It's technically "as labeled by the manufacturer", but it's... not labeled. I would personally play it safe and just not bring it, but you could easily argue both sides.

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Re: New York 2018

Postby windu34 » April 16th, 2018, 11:24 am

I'm not trying to take sides or anything, but if it's not labeled, then what would you do windu? It's technically "as labeled by the manufacturer", but it's... not labeled. I would personally play it safe and just not bring it, but you could easily argue both sides.
Sure it would have been clearer for the rule-writing committee to have explicitly stated "the batteries must be labeled", but one of the biggest constraints that people don't consider is that the rules for each event are limited to 1 page (or 2 in the case of tech/physics events) and therefore being as concise as possible when writing the rules is crucial. I have heard of very few instances (not to say that they don't occur of course) of people not using labelled batteries.

Additionally, if the method of verifying the voltage is by the manufacturer label ONLY as stated in the rules, then the supervisor could have penalized you for not complying with the section in the rules specifying what type of battery is being used or the voltage constraint because it can't be verified.

Personally, since I am familiar with R/C batteries and such, I would overlook it at a regional competition and maybe even an invitational if I can immediately recognize what type of battery pack it is and the voltage based on the size and shape of the battery pack, but I would be certain to "scold" the competitors and tell them they need to use batteries that are labeled in the future. I see the purpose of these levels of competitions as learning experiences and if I know that the team will not gain an advantage over other teams, I believe it is fair to let the compete as such. If it were a States competition, I usually check the devices over during impound for violations so I can inform the team that they have a violation that they need to fix so they have an opportunity to try and fix it. If I didn't catch it during impound or the team couldn't fix it, I would most likely tier/penalize according to the rules (not familiar enough with battery buggy rules to know which is the consequence). The implications of a penalty/tier at a state competition can be huge and teams that follow the rules should be rewarded for doing so and those that do not should not be scored similarly.

I have tiered/penalized plenty of teams thus far in my Division D career and have never lost an arbitration because I can clearly point to a section in the rules or to an FAQ/clarification. Arbitration committees are always happy to side with the supervisor in these cases regarding the rules.
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