Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

User avatar
Unome
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4338
Joined: January 26th, 2014, 12:48 pm
Division: Grad
State: GA
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by Unome »

windu34 wrote:
nicholasmaurer wrote:
rfscoach wrote:

Well, as an event supervisor there, I did not want my test released. That's my thought.
I'm curious as to why you object to the release of your tests...?
As am I. All of the supervisors I have spoken to are always in favor of releasing tests to students. This is mostly because they are all alumni and remember a time when they were competitors and wished they could see their tests. Why don't you want your test released?
I probably should have mentioned, the packet we got did not include a few tests, presumably for this reason (fits with past years). I am pretty sure rfscoach's test was one of those not included.
Userpage

Opinions expressed on this site are not official; the only place for official rules changes and FAQs is soinc.org.
knottingpurple
Member
Member
Posts: 220
Joined: April 10th, 2016, 5:44 am
Division: Grad
State: NJ
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by knottingpurple »

nicholasmaurer wrote:
windu34 wrote:
knottingpurple wrote:So this doesn't exactly match up with the topic of this thread, but the discussion of studying for the specific ES at nats reminded me for it. My best event last year was probably Remote Sensing, but I felt like when I took the Nationals Remote Sensing test that I'd never taken a Remote Sensing test all that similar to it. When I remarked on that to windu after he ran Remote Sensing at PUSO this year, he told me to go look at the Wright State Invitational Remote Sensing test from last year, and I expected it would have similar question types or something, but when I looked at it, several of the questions seemed to be the same as what I could remember from the Nationals test. As an invitational, it was definitely released to competitors, and somebody had in fact shared it with my team, but not knowing anything about the ES's or anything (besides that one of them was a former colleague of my parents', and the dad of my childhood babysitter, but that didn't really tell me anything about his test writing style lol) I didn't really have time to take every single Remote Sensing test we had from an invitational, and as it happened, Wright State Invitational was not one of the ones I'd taken.

Okay, having gone through the tests side by side, the invitational station 1 is similar in topic to nats station 9, invitational 3 is literally only a couple words different from nats 6, invitational 5 is the same topic as nats 1, invitational 7 and nats 8 require the same interpretation of different data, and while of course I could've studied all of Remote Sensing better and done better, it also seems like attending the Wright State invitational was basically a shortcut to high placings at Nats. It wasn't just a shortcut in familiarity with the ESs' styles but also in familiarity with exact questions, and idk what other people's opinions on that are but I resented it.
I think is an issue that must be voiced to national ES in order to be resolved correctly. I certainly struggle myself with trying to ask different, unique questions when writing tests for the same event, and I think its just something that the ES needs to have in mind when doing so. While formatting may not necessarily change due to personal preference, it is certainly crucial that the ES try their best to change the content and vary the focus on their tests (topic-wise).
When I am an ES, I specifically avoid reviewing previous tests I have written for the event until after the majority of the new test is written. At that point, I may go back and identify a handful of questions on topics I'd overlooked that I think are worth paraphrasing for inclusion. But generally, by not looking at past tests I've written, I can avoid writing questions with the same wording and answer choices, even if the topics are similar (just by the nature of the rules). Once you look at a previous test, it can be very difficult to get your past questions out of your head to avoid repeating them.
So in the case of this one particular Remote Sensing test I'm annoyed with, I completely understand that there would be an energy budget formula question, because it's an important section of the rules, even though I think copying the wording is lazy. And there's no real section of the rules I can say was left out of the Nats test. But there were certainly many, many ways the Nats test could have maintained its quality, complexity, and breadth without repeating quite so many ideas from the Wright State test. I haven't yet been an ES but just in writing tests for captains' tryouts and stuff, I looked at previous tests I'd written for the same event, exactly copied the formatting, but then typed over each question with something different so taking the two tests wouldn't allow any answer memorization, so I don't see why Nats ESes, with much more knowledge in the events than I have, can't find at least as many different ways to meaningfully test the material.
WWP South, graduated 2018
Current undegrad in physics @Oxford University
User avatar
Unome
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4338
Joined: January 26th, 2014, 12:48 pm
Division: Grad
State: GA
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by Unome »

knottingpurple wrote:
nicholasmaurer wrote:
windu34 wrote: I think is an issue that must be voiced to national ES in order to be resolved correctly. I certainly struggle myself with trying to ask different, unique questions when writing tests for the same event, and I think its just something that the ES needs to have in mind when doing so. While formatting may not necessarily change due to personal preference, it is certainly crucial that the ES try their best to change the content and vary the focus on their tests (topic-wise).
When I am an ES, I specifically avoid reviewing previous tests I have written for the event until after the majority of the new test is written. At that point, I may go back and identify a handful of questions on topics I'd overlooked that I think are worth paraphrasing for inclusion. But generally, by not looking at past tests I've written, I can avoid writing questions with the same wording and answer choices, even if the topics are similar (just by the nature of the rules). Once you look at a previous test, it can be very difficult to get your past questions out of your head to avoid repeating them.
So in the case of this one particular Remote Sensing test I'm annoyed with, I completely understand that there would be an energy budget formula question, because it's an important section of the rules, even though I think copying the wording is lazy. And there's no real section of the rules I can say was left out of the Nats test. But there were certainly many, many ways the Nats test could have maintained its quality, complexity, and breadth without repeating quite so many ideas from the Wright State test. I haven't yet been an ES but just in writing tests for captains' tryouts and stuff, I looked at previous tests I'd written for the same event, exactly copied the formatting, but then typed over each question with something different so taking the two tests wouldn't allow any answer memorization, so I don't see why Nats ESes, with much more knowledge in the events than I have, can't find at least as many different ways to meaningfully test the material.
There are only so many invitationals near these particular event supervisors. Wright State/Centerville tends to be a good one to check because a lot of the National Event Supervisors from Ohio live near Dayton (i.e. within a few hundred miles or so - Dayton is nearer than the Cleveland area or Sylvania for most of them). I haven't ever seen WL-S tests, but those might also be useful on the same basis (not certain).
Userpage

Opinions expressed on this site are not official; the only place for official rules changes and FAQs is soinc.org.
syo_astro
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 621
Joined: December 3rd, 2011, 9:45 pm
Division: Grad
State: NY
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 20 times
Contact:

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by syo_astro »

windu34 wrote:As am I. All of the supervisors I have spoken to are always in favor of releasing tests to students. This is mostly because they are all alumni and remember a time when they were competitors and wished they could see their tests...
For graded tests, personally, no (even as a competitor). I opt for only putting "standard" tests and invites online. Releasing all tests can saturate one with resources and can narrow studying to be on specific tests. Tests help, etc, but tests aren't automatically going to be helpful (especially with too many).

For obvious reasons, if states are undermanned, have to use the same ES, etc...tests probably won't get released. Still, here's a list of reasons (and counters) I can think of to release graded tests (note: I assume the main goal here is to improve learning / tests...hopefully not mistaken):
-"It helps students to identify their own specific mistakes"...Call me skeptical, but, from what I've seen, releasing graded tests mostly leads to scoring complaints. Yes, some use them well for studying / give helpful feedback, but this is not the majority.
-"More practice is needed to do well at events"...Invitationals seem to be good for that (I am a fan of invites releasing tests online, which is why prestigious invites don't make much sense to me as opposed to invites that give good practice for regionals / states...a rant for another day).
-"Practice needs to be relevant to the specific ES / region / state"...Then maybe something like NC's system would work best. At least it'd inform everyone uniformly. Some tests aren't even good practice, especially if ESs change.

I think it's worth investigating what's good practice as well as teaching better question making / scoring practices. But I can't think of how giving back scored tests from regionals / states necessarily helps with this (...other than, sure, learning you got a specific question wrong...). The only other issue I can think of would be about accountability, but that is very much a rabbit hole that people can't seem to agree about.
B: Crave the Wave, Environmental Chemistry, Robo-Cross, Meteo, Phys Sci Lab, Solar System, DyPlan (E and V), Shock Value
C: Microbe Mission, DyPlan (Fresh Waters), Fermi Questions, GeoMaps, Grav Vehicle, Scrambler, Rocks, Astro
Grad: Writing Tests/Supervising (NY/MI)
nicholasmaurer
Coach
Coach
Posts: 422
Joined: May 19th, 2017, 10:55 am
Division: Grad
State: OH
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by nicholasmaurer »

Unome wrote: There are only so many invitationals near these particular event supervisors. Wright State/Centerville tends to be a good one to check because a lot of the National Event Supervisors from Ohio live near Dayton (i.e. within a few hundred miles or so - Dayton is nearer than the Cleveland area or Sylvania for most of them). I haven't ever seen WL-S tests, but those might also be useful on the same basis (not certain).
In my estimation, the high ratio of NES at Centerville/Wright State is less a matter of location (although this certainly helps), and more that CeAnn Chalker and Alan Chalker are involved in this tournament.
Assistant Coach and Alumnus ('14) - Solon High School Science Olympiad
Tournament Director - Northeast Ohio Regional Tournament
Tournament Director - Solon High School Science Olympiad Invitational

Opinions expressed on this site are not official; the only place for official rules changes and FAQs is soinc.org.
User avatar
Unome
Moderator
Moderator
Posts: 4338
Joined: January 26th, 2014, 12:48 pm
Division: Grad
State: GA
Has thanked: 235 times
Been thanked: 85 times

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by Unome »

nicholasmaurer wrote:
Unome wrote: There are only so many invitationals near these particular event supervisors. Wright State/Centerville tends to be a good one to check because a lot of the National Event Supervisors from Ohio live near Dayton (i.e. within a few hundred miles or so - Dayton is nearer than the Cleveland area or Sylvania for most of them). I haven't ever seen WL-S tests, but those might also be useful on the same basis (not certain).
In my estimation, the high ratio of NES at Centerville/Wright State is less a matter of location (although this certainly helps), and more that CeAnn Chalker and Alan Chalker are involved in this tournament.
That sounds about right, but it's also true that a lot of the NESes are in the area. Perhaps the Chalkers are the confounding factor :lol:
Userpage

Opinions expressed on this site are not official; the only place for official rules changes and FAQs is soinc.org.
knottingpurple
Member
Member
Posts: 220
Joined: April 10th, 2016, 5:44 am
Division: Grad
State: NJ
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by knottingpurple »

syo_astro wrote:
windu34 wrote:As am I. All of the supervisors I have spoken to are always in favor of releasing tests to students. This is mostly because they are all alumni and remember a time when they were competitors and wished they could see their tests...
For graded tests, personally, no (even as a competitor). I opt for only putting "standard" tests and invites online. Releasing all tests can saturate one with resources and can narrow studying to be on specific tests. Tests help, etc, but tests aren't automatically going to be helpful (especially with too many).

For obvious reasons, if states are undermanned, have to use the same ES, etc...tests probably won't get released. Still, here's a list of reasons (and counters) I can think of to release graded tests (note: I assume the main goal here is to improve learning / tests...hopefully not mistaken):
-"It helps students to identify their own specific mistakes"...Call me skeptical, but, from what I've seen, releasing graded tests mostly leads to scoring complaints. Yes, some use them well for studying / give helpful feedback, but this is not the majority.
-"More practice is needed to do well at events"...Invitationals seem to be good for that (I am a fan of invites releasing tests online, which is why prestigious invites don't make much sense to me as opposed to invites that give good practice for regionals / states...a rant for another day).
-"Practice needs to be relevant to the specific ES / region / state"...Then maybe something like NC's system would work best. At least it'd inform everyone uniformly. Some tests aren't even good practice, especially if ESs change.

I think it's worth investigating what's good practice as well as teaching better question making / scoring practices. But I can't think of how giving back scored tests from regionals / states necessarily helps with this (...other than, sure, learning you got a specific question wrong...). The only other issue I can think of would be about accountability, but that is very much a rabbit hole that people can't seem to agree about.
Not for Science Olympiad, but for some other competitions we've done where we didn't get exams back, we got back from competition and sat and wrote down everything we remembered being asked. So like, if there's a whole general topic you didn't understand, even on a test which isn't returned from you, you can still remember it immediately after the end of the event and learn from it...
WWP South, graduated 2018
Current undegrad in physics @Oxford University
knightmoves
Member
Member
Posts: 632
Joined: April 26th, 2018, 6:40 pm
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 108 times

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by knightmoves »

Who has ever come out of a test (any kind of test) thinking they've done well, and then been surprised when they've got their grade back?

So why did you do badly? Do you not know as much as you think? Did you misjudge the level of rigor required in the answers? Or was the ES just "unusual"?

As knottingpurple says, if you know you bombed a test, you can write down the things you couldn't do and study them. But if you don't know, you don't know how to improve.

My friend did bridge building last time it was an event. His team was not historically strong at building events, but he built a bridge that he was proud of, that held the full weight, and took it to an invitational. He placed near the bottom. So he built another bridge which was a bit lighter, and again placed near the bottom. Eventually, a coach from another team spoke to his coach, and pointed out that they were in completely the wrong ballpark, and that improving a bridge from 70g to 40g wasn't going to help his score. The second year, he placed at regionals. If nobody had told him what he was doing wrong, he'd have spent the whole second year also building heavy things and scoring badly.
User avatar
bearasauras
Member
Member
Posts: 410
Joined: March 4th, 2003, 8:33 pm
State: CA
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 115 times
Contact:

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by bearasauras »

But wouldn't the student or the coach know that there's still room for improvement when they're placed near the bottom?
User avatar
TheChiScientist
Member
Member
Posts: 732
Joined: March 11th, 2018, 11:25 am
Division: Grad
State: IL
Pronouns: He/Him/His
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 44 times

Re: Releasing graded tests at Regionals and States

Post by TheChiScientist »

Yes but some coaches are not as aware of what wins SciOly competitions so they don't know what to improve upon.
A Science Olympian from 2015 - 2019 CLCSO Alumni
Medal Count:30
IL PPP/Mission Assistant State Supervisor.
CLC Div. B Tournament Director.
President of The Builder Cult.
"A true Science Olympian embraces a life without Science Olympiad by becoming a part of Science Olympiad itself"- Me
Locked

Return to “2018 Regionals & States”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest