Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby hippo9 » April 29th, 2018, 3:46 pm


I can confirm that the 53rd in EV was due to a "construction violation" that was appealed but rejected.

The ruling was disgusting, relying not on proof but the word of the ES, and was based on an incredibly unclear section of the rules that had gone uncalled all year.

The run was also one of their best all year, and would have resulted in New Trier placing 6th or 7th overall.

The arbitration committee completely missed the ball and the ruling shows a failure in the national arbitration system.
What even was the violation? As chalker said there probably was a reason behind the decision.
The device's dowel was not within 1.0 cm of the track's surface for the entire duration of each run. This was observed on the first run and the team was notified so they could adjust their device before the second run. For both runs, the dowel was in an allowable position before the run but measured as too high above the track after the run.
How does that happen? Was it touching the axle or something?
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby bernard » April 29th, 2018, 4:16 pm

What even was the violation? As chalker said there probably was a reason behind the decision.
The device's dowel was not within 1.0 cm of the track's surface for the entire duration of each run. This was observed on the first run and the team was notified so they could adjust their device before the second run. For both runs, the dowel was in an allowable position before the run but measured as too high above the track after the run.
How does that happen? Was it touching the axle or something?
For both runs, the team's device stopped abruptly, tilting forward and pushing the vertical dowel up.
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby chalker » April 29th, 2018, 5:48 pm


Let's drop the square roots and deal with variance.

Var(x) = (1/n)sum((x-xmean)^2)
= (1/n)sum(x^2 -2*x*xmean + xmean*xmean)
Push the xmeans out of the sum, because they're constants, and you get
Var(x) = (1/n)sum(x^2) - 2*xmean*(1/n)sum(x) + xmean*xmean
= meansq(x) - 2*xmean*xmean + xmean*xmean
= meansq(x) - xmean*xmean

My notation is horrible here. I hope you get the point.
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby hippo9 » April 29th, 2018, 6:08 pm

The device's dowel was not within 1.0 cm of the track's surface for the entire duration of each run. This was observed on the first run and the team was notified so they could adjust their device before the second run. For both runs, the dowel was in an allowable position before the run but measured as too high above the track after the run.
How does that happen? Was it touching the axle or something?
For both runs, the team's device stopped abruptly, tilting forward and pushing the vertical dowel up.
Ok makes sense, but being able to stop that abruptly is a feat in and of itself.
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby Unome » April 29th, 2018, 7:07 pm

How does that happen? Was it touching the axle or something?
For both runs, the team's device stopped abruptly, tilting forward and pushing the vertical dowel up.
Ok makes sense, but being able to stop that abruptly is a feat in and of itself.
The abruptness of stopping is not the concern.
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby hippo9 » April 29th, 2018, 7:20 pm

For both runs, the team's device stopped abruptly, tilting forward and pushing the vertical dowel up.
Ok makes sense, but being able to stop that abruptly is a feat in and of itself.
The abruptness of stopping is not the concern.
I know, I'm just saying getting a vehicle to stop that suddenly that it almost tips over, is very hard to do.
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby Ashernoel » April 29th, 2018, 8:48 pm

From what my teammate in EV last year tells me, the ES measured the dowel after the first run, declared the violation, and gave them the next few minutes to fix the problem.

It was especially hard for him because they had so much video evidence of the dowel not moving enough to violate the rules in their practice runs, but stuff happened at nationals and they were thrown into a dire and unexpected scenario. The given explanation at the time was not clear to the participants, though it might have been to the super, and the time it consumed hindered their ability to adequately prepare for their second run.

I had thought the violation was due to the dowel being used as a brake when it stopped, but it turns out this was not the case.

My apologies for using the word "disgusting" to describe the ruling, as it appears it was handled fairly and well by the committee (and the event supervisor), and my own team bias should not have been so pervasive when speaking to such an objective matter.
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby windu34 » April 29th, 2018, 10:22 pm

Ok makes sense, but being able to stop that abruptly is a feat in and of itself.
The abruptness of stopping is not the concern.
I know, I'm just saying getting a vehicle to stop that suddenly that it almost tips over, is very hard to do.
I dont now what youre trying to accomplish here. It was considered a competition violation because their device's distance score could not be measured accurately due to a clear violation of the rule that stated the dowel must remain within <=1cm of the surface of the track. Difficulty in stopping is completely irrelevant and this team did not have the most abrupt braking for the record. If you saw Troy's 2016 EV run, you would probably think the laws of physics had been broken

Ashernoel: Can you testify to exactly what was trying to be accomplished by the competitors in this case? Was something being accomplished by the dowel moving? (I know this is slightly off-topic, but Im super curious)
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby 4Head » April 30th, 2018, 4:38 pm

If you saw Troy's 2016 EV run, you would probably think the laws of physics had been broken
Can confirm. Black magic was involved. Saw it live sry
Ashernoel: Can you testify to exactly what was trying to be accomplished by the competitors in this case? Was something being accomplished by the dowel moving? (I know this is slightly off-topic, but Im super curious)
It sounds like they didn’t even know about it until the competition, and their dowel was just not 100% secure
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Re: Amended Nationals Appeals Policy

Postby TheChiScientist » May 1st, 2018, 5:35 am

If you saw Troy's 2016 EV run, you would probably think the laws of physics had been broken
What? Why?
Can confirm. Black magic was involved. Saw it live sry
Now I am curious. :?:
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