Chemical Clocks

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Re: Chemical Clocks

Post by PM2017 »

radioactivated wrote:Potentially silly question: is dissolution of material in water a valid chemical process for a timer? It's not a chemical reaction in the strictest sense.
I would not risk it.
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Re: Chemical Clocks

Post by Rezalis »

For the chemical timer does it need to be adjusted chemically? I was thinking of using a candle to heat up a gas container. Adjusting the distance of the container from the flame would be a reliable of adjusting the time it takes to complete the action. The only problem is that the timer is not adjusted chemically. Does this no longer qualify as a chemical timer? A system such as this will also entail the need for a separate timer because it completes one of the tasks.
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Re: Chemical Clocks

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Rezalis wrote:For the chemical timer does it need to be adjusted chemically? I was thinking of using a candle to heat up a gas container. Adjusting the distance of the container from the flame would be a reliable of adjusting the time it takes to complete the action. The only problem is that the timer is not adjusted chemically. Does this no longer qualify as a chemical timer? A system such as this will also entail the need for a separate timer because it completes one of the tasks.
My impression from the wording of the rule, FAQs, and conversations with state/national event supervisors is this: the timer needs to be controlled by a chemical reaction rate. Therefore, adjustments to the timer in order to hit the target time also must involve an attempt at changing the reaction rate.
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Re: Chemical Clocks

Post by Rezalis »

nicholasmaurer wrote:
Rezalis wrote:For the chemical timer does it need to be adjusted chemically? I was thinking of using a candle to heat up a gas container. Adjusting the distance of the container from the flame would be a reliable of adjusting the time it takes to complete the action. The only problem is that the timer is not adjusted chemically. Does this no longer qualify as a chemical timer? A system such as this will also entail the need for a separate timer because it completes one of the tasks.
My impression from the wording of the rule, FAQs, and conversations with state/national event supervisors is this: the timer needs to be controlled by a chemical reaction rate. Therefore, adjustments to the timer in order to hit the target time also must involve an attempt at changing the reaction rate.
The only viable way of controlling the speed of the chemical reaction of the flame is to adjust how much air it receives to combust. Has anyone been successful in a task like this?
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Re: Chemical Clocks

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Rezalis wrote:
nicholasmaurer wrote:
Rezalis wrote:For the chemical timer does it need to be adjusted chemically? I was thinking of using a candle to heat up a gas container. Adjusting the distance of the container from the flame would be a reliable of adjusting the time it takes to complete the action. The only problem is that the timer is not adjusted chemically. Does this no longer qualify as a chemical timer? A system such as this will also entail the need for a separate timer because it completes one of the tasks.
My impression from the wording of the rule, FAQs, and conversations with state/national event supervisors is this: the timer needs to be controlled by a chemical reaction rate. Therefore, adjustments to the timer in order to hit the target time also must involve an attempt at changing the reaction rate.
The only viable way of controlling the speed of the chemical reaction of the flame is to adjust how much air it receives to combust. Has anyone been successful in a task like this?
I might know another viable method (someone else will have to confirm, as I'm not trying this method), but you could use floating wicks, and change the concentration of fuel for the fire in a solution (or a suspension...?) below.
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Re: Chemical Clocks

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PM2017 wrote:
Rezalis wrote:
nicholasmaurer wrote:
My impression from the wording of the rule, FAQs, and conversations with state/national event supervisors is this: the timer needs to be controlled by a chemical reaction rate. Therefore, adjustments to the timer in order to hit the target time also must involve an attempt at changing the reaction rate.
The only viable way of controlling the speed of the chemical reaction of the flame is to adjust how much air it receives to combust. Has anyone been successful in a task like this?
I might know another viable method (someone else will have to confirm, as I'm not trying this method), but you could use floating wicks, and change the concentration of fuel for the fire in a solution (or a suspension...?) below.
The use of flames for a timer is problematic per the FAQ on (un)controlled flames, which says they must "burn out quickly" and cannot involve flammable liquids as a fuel source.
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Re: Chemical Clocks

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nicholasmaurer wrote:
Rezalis wrote:For the chemical timer does it need to be adjusted chemically? I was thinking of using a candle to heat up a gas container. Adjusting the distance of the container from the flame would be a reliable of adjusting the time it takes to complete the action. The only problem is that the timer is not adjusted chemically. Does this no longer qualify as a chemical timer? A system such as this will also entail the need for a separate timer because it completes one of the tasks.
My impression from the wording of the rule, FAQs, and conversations with state/national event supervisors is this: the timer needs to be controlled by a chemical reaction rate. Therefore, adjustments to the timer in order to hit the target time also must involve an attempt at changing the reaction rate.
I've received a couple PM questions about this interpretation, as well as some new information. I've actually gone back and forth on this particular question several times now.

Clearly the underlying action has to be driven/powered by a chemical (re)action to count as a chemical timer, and cannot rely on an electrical sensor. That is generally agreed upon per the rules and FAQs. Additionally, per the 11/14/17 FAQ, a chemical reaction directly causing a mechanical action (e.g. a reaction producing gas to inflate a balloon) is considered a valid chemical timer.

However, once you are talking about State or National tournaments, an additional requirement is imposed on all timers (4.g.iv.) requiring that you be able to demonstrate how the timer is adjusted to hit the target time. Adjusting a chemical timer by altering its chemistry (reaction rate, reactants, temperature, etc.) clearly meets these requirements. However, consider once again the example of a reaction inflating a balloon. If you adjust the distance the balloon must inflate, rather than the reaction rate, I believe this exposes you to ambiguity. If the ES interprets the chemical timer to be the chemical reaction itself (not an unreasonable interpretation in my opinion), then you are not adjusting the timer, but rather the associated mechanical action or even other parts of the device outside the timer (e.g. the switch that's being pushed which is part of the next action).

Therefore, I believe the safest approach is altering the underlying chemistry. This is - I believe - the original intent of the rules and why the NES views the chemical timer to be "a trap" rather than a reliable approach to winning. However, I would certainly entertain the counterarguments if I was the ES. I believe the general approach of the NES for this event is to avoid being nit-picky or excessively punitive, so you may be fine regardless. The phrasing of your ASL may play an influential role as well.

It does appear that SoCal has issued a state FAQ allowing either approach (altering the chemistry or the associated mechanical action) as valid. It would be extremely helpful to have a national FAQ on this issue (ahem Chalker), however they have been reticent in offering FAQs this year. Hopefully all of this context this helps those who are finalizing designs before the upcoming flood of State tournaments.

PS - regardless of the interpretation of this issue, the original design in question (involving a candle to heat a gas) is not legal per the FAQ on controlled flames.
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Re: Chemical Clocks

Post by Ghtf »

Would an intermediate step between my chemical reaction and an electrical sensor be legal per the FAQ? Say, I tape a piece of paper to a color sensor. The other end of the paper goes into a iodine clock reaction. When the reaction competes, the paper slowly absorbs the now-dark solution and turns purple, triggering the next action. Would this still violate the FAQ?
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Re: Chemical Clocks

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Ghtf wrote:Would an intermediate step between my chemical reaction and an electrical sensor be legal per the FAQ? Say, I tape a piece of paper to a color sensor. The other end of the paper goes into a iodine clock reaction. When the reaction competes, the paper slowly absorbs the now-dark solution and turns purple, triggering the next action. Would this still violate the FAQ?
I would be wary of doing something like this because the reasoning behind the rule is so that you can't change the threshold that the sensor must detect to activate the next action. The paper now just becomes part of your chemical clock, at least in my opinion, so it is still not allowed.
nicholasmaurer wrote:t does appear that SoCal has issued a state FAQ allowing either approach (altering the chemistry or the associated mechanical action) as valid. It would be extremely helpful to have a national FAQ on this issue (ahem Chalker), however they have been reticent in offering FAQs this year. Hopefully all of this context this helps those who are finalizing designs before the upcoming flood of State tournaments.
This may sound a little irresponsible, as I am the one involved in a SoCal team, and not you, but I can't seem to find a clarification that says this. I used the"Ctrl+f" and typed in chemical, on this page: http://www.socalstatescioly.org/?tab=st ... ifications, but none of them seem to say anything regarding this issue. It doesn't help that the questions are so poorly written either...

Where did you come across this information?
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Re: Chemical Clocks

Post by marty3 »

PM2017 wrote:
nicholasmaurer wrote:t does appear that SoCal has issued a state FAQ allowing either approach (altering the chemistry or the associated mechanical action) as valid. It would be extremely helpful to have a national FAQ on this issue (ahem Chalker), however they have been reticent in offering FAQs this year. Hopefully all of this context this helps those who are finalizing designs before the upcoming flood of State tournaments.
This may sound a little irresponsible, as I am the one involved in a SoCal team, and not you, but I can't seem to find a clarification that says this. I used the"Ctrl+f" and typed in chemical, on this page: http://www.socalstatescioly.org/?tab=st ... ifications, but none of them seem to say anything regarding this issue. It doesn't help that the questions are so poorly written either...

Where did you come across this information?
I believe he's citing the question "Are there restrictions on the independent and controlled variables used for the timer demonstration?" If you download the spreadsheet, you'll see that this is a question about rule 4.g.iv.
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