Sounds of Music C

User avatar
Creationist127
Member
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: August 14th, 2018, 3:21 pm
Division: C
State: IN
Location: SR388

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby Creationist127 » January 17th, 2019, 8:24 am

Birdmusic wrote:So I noticed the rules mentioned how event supervisors “may” move the testing equipment closer for the pitch part. (Part II.f.iii)

Thing is, I’m afraid an event supervisor will decide this means they can choose to not move it closer, and on our instrument (copper pipe xylophone), if we want to play in tune, only 3-4 of the pitches register at 1 m. We tried using a cardboard box placed behind the instrument as a resonator but it doesn’t really seem to make a difference.

Do you guys have any recommendations for us? We are currently using a mallet made of rubber bands wrapped around a dowel. (This is necessary because the wooden dowel alone, while louder, causes the pitch to head towards the higher overtones)

Unless the ES is unnecessarily cruel, they will probably move the test equipment over.
Scratch that. Unless they are incompetent inexperienced, they will move the test equipment over. If they don't, and you get a bad score, that is probably grounds for an appeal.
2018 Events: Hovercraft, Thermo, Coaster, Solar System
2019 Events: Thermo, Circuit Lab, Sounds, Wright Stuff

"The flow of time is always cruel...
its speed seems different for each person, but no one can change it...
A thing that does not change with time is a memory of younger days..."

Justin72835
Member
Member
Posts: 168
Joined: June 25th, 2017, 7:06 am
Division: C
State: TX

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby Justin72835 » January 17th, 2019, 8:42 am

Creationist127 wrote:
Birdmusic wrote:So I noticed the rules mentioned how event supervisors “may” move the testing equipment closer for the pitch part. (Part II.f.iii)

Thing is, I’m afraid an event supervisor will decide this means they can choose to not move it closer, and on our instrument (copper pipe xylophone), if we want to play in tune, only 3-4 of the pitches register at 1 m. We tried using a cardboard box placed behind the instrument as a resonator but it doesn’t really seem to make a difference.

Do you guys have any recommendations for us? We are currently using a mallet made of rubber bands wrapped around a dowel. (This is necessary because the wooden dowel alone, while louder, causes the pitch to head towards the higher overtones)

Unless the ES is unnecessarily cruel, they will probably move the test equipment over.
Scratch that. Unless they are incompetent inexperienced, they will move the test equipment over. If they don't, and you get a bad score, that is probably grounds for an appeal.

This is true. Good proctors will almost always listen to you provided that what is being asked is within the rules. On that same note, always bring a copy of the rules to events like these. If you ask and your proctor says no, you can sometimes change their mind by showing them specific statements on there.
"The fault, dear Brutus, is not in our stars,
But in ourselves, that we are underlings."


Seven Lakes High School '19

TheSquaad
Member
Member
Posts: 119
Joined: March 18th, 2017, 5:14 pm
Division: C
State: -

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby TheSquaad » January 17th, 2019, 2:29 pm

Carpenter wrote:Does anybody know what scores would have been needed to place at MIT?


Both Acton teams (who scored 1st and 2nd) had perfect builds (full pitch score, >85 decibels, full log)

User avatar
markuswso17
Member
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: March 19th, 2017, 11:34 am
Division: Grad
State: VA

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby markuswso17 » January 18th, 2019, 10:46 am

What apps or programs are you using to measure the average pitch? Soinc recommends to use the Science Journal app by Google, but it include 0Hz as part of the average in data collection, causing the average to be lower than the actual note average. I know that you can repeat the note as many times as possible in those 5 seconds, but this is not an optimal situation because each start of a note will naturally be higher pitched than the sustain of the note. What have you found to work?
Alumni
Fairfax High School Captain 2017
Electric Vehicle Nationals 4th place 2017
Email: markuswso17@gmail.com
Facebook: https://tinyurl.com/markuswso17FB
2016-2017 Events: Electric Vehicle, Forensics, Game On, Robot Arm

User avatar
Riptide
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 143
Joined: December 4th, 2017, 7:09 pm
Division: C
State: TX

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby Riptide » January 18th, 2019, 10:58 am

markuswso17 wrote:What apps or programs are you using to measure the average pitch? Soinc recommends to use the Science Journal app by Google, but it include 0Hz as part of the average in data collection, causing the average to be lower than the actual note average. I know that you can repeat the note as many times as possible in those 5 seconds, but this is not an optimal situation because each start of a note will naturally be higher pitched than the sustain of the note. What have you found to work?

In science journal you can crop the recording to take the average over only a certain portion of the entire recording (click on the recording; the 3 dot menu on the top right gives a crop option). Realistically you only need a second or two to get an accurate average, so you can crop it to a portion with no 0’s/overtones showing up. I don’t think there’s any specific app or device that would differ from Science Journal picking up 0’s.
Seven Lakes High School '19
Seven Lakes Junior High '15

Events:
Sounds/Code/Forensics/Wright Stuff/Thermodynamics

User avatar
markuswso17
Member
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: March 19th, 2017, 11:34 am
Division: Grad
State: VA

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby markuswso17 » January 18th, 2019, 11:04 am

The rules state that: "The pitch measurement will be the average value during the 5 seconds.". To me that means that the average will be taken from the entirety of the 5 seconds, and not what looks like the average fundamental.
Alumni
Fairfax High School Captain 2017
Electric Vehicle Nationals 4th place 2017
Email: markuswso17@gmail.com
Facebook: https://tinyurl.com/markuswso17FB
2016-2017 Events: Electric Vehicle, Forensics, Game On, Robot Arm

User avatar
Riptide
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 143
Joined: December 4th, 2017, 7:09 pm
Division: C
State: TX

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby Riptide » January 18th, 2019, 11:22 am

markuswso17 wrote:The rules state that: "The pitch measurement will be the average value during the 5 seconds.". To me that means that the average will be taken from the entirety of the 5 seconds, and not what looks like the average fundamental.

My bad I thought you were asking from a competitors point of view. If you’re just trying to calibrate your own build then doing the crop thing works. From a proctors point of view I don’t think there’s anything they can really do short of taking the average over a time less than 5 seconds, which is clearly against the rules. No app will just magically not record 0 or strange overtones - it’ll be up to students to build a device that does its best to avoid this by sustaining the note for the entire 5 seconds without having to repeat it while keeping it at a volume that the app will register it at consistently.
Seven Lakes High School '19
Seven Lakes Junior High '15

Events:
Sounds/Code/Forensics/Wright Stuff/Thermodynamics

User avatar
markuswso17
Member
Member
Posts: 36
Joined: March 19th, 2017, 11:34 am
Division: Grad
State: VA

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby markuswso17 » January 18th, 2019, 11:26 am

Riptide wrote:
markuswso17 wrote:The rules state that: "The pitch measurement will be the average value during the 5 seconds.". To me that means that the average will be taken from the entirety of the 5 seconds, and not what looks like the average fundamental.

My bad I thought you were asking from a competitors point of view. If you’re just trying to calibrate your own build then doing the crop thing works. From a proctors point of view I don’t think there’s anything they can really do short of taking the average over a time less than 5 seconds, which is clearly against the rules. No app will just magically not record 0 or strange overtones - it’ll be up to students to build a device that does its best to avoid this by sustaining the note for the entire 5 seconds without having to repeat it while keeping it at a volume that the app will register it at consistently.

It's more of a dear of inconsistency between different tournaments. Do you change the instrument to not have 0Hz as part of the average or do you find a fix to the problem and have all tournaments be the same. To me, having 0Hz as part of the average doesn't seem fair because it also depends on how well an Es's microphone pics up the frequency. There are just a lot of factors that should be figured out and be mentioned officially from Science Olympiad.
Alumni
Fairfax High School Captain 2017
Electric Vehicle Nationals 4th place 2017
Email: markuswso17@gmail.com
Facebook: https://tinyurl.com/markuswso17FB
2016-2017 Events: Electric Vehicle, Forensics, Game On, Robot Arm

Birdmusic
Member
Member
Posts: 74
Joined: October 22nd, 2017, 9:33 am
Division: C
State: CA
Location: In the Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby Birdmusic » January 18th, 2019, 8:58 pm

Creationist127 wrote:Unless the ES is unnecessarily cruel, they will probably move the test equipment over.
Scratch that. Unless they are incompetent inexperienced, they will move the test equipment over. If they don't, and you get a bad score, that is probably grounds for an appeal.

Justin72835 wrote:This is true. Good proctors will almost always listen to you provided that what is being asked is within the rules. On that same note, always bring a copy of the rules to events like these. If you ask and your proctor says no, you can sometimes change their mind by showing them specific statements on there.

Alright, thanks guys! I will be sure to print a copy of the rules!
I like birds.

2018 Results
Regionals/States
Crime Busters: 1/2
Disease Detectives: 1/5
Hovercraft (both builds failed, rip): 11/9

2019 Results
GGSO
Disease Detectives: 6
Circuit lab:11
Sounds:3

User avatar
SciolyHarsh
Member
Member
Posts: 34
Joined: May 20th, 2018, 5:44 pm
State: -

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby SciolyHarsh » January 20th, 2019, 7:34 pm

This happened to us at a recent invitational. We made a xylophone and right before the tournament, we realized that it wouldn't work for the invitational, so we used our backup instrument. But it ended up pointless, because the supervisors ended up measuring the note rather than the frequency in Science Journal. They just called out whether it was sharp or flat....
2017-2018 Events: Chemistry Lab, Dynamic Planet, Microbe Mission, Experimental Design, Rocks and Minerals

2018-2019 Events: Dynamic Planet, Astronomy, Sounds of Music, Circuit Lab, Geologic Mapping

Birdmusic
Member
Member
Posts: 74
Joined: October 22nd, 2017, 9:33 am
Division: C
State: CA
Location: In the Milky Way Galaxy

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby Birdmusic » January 21st, 2019, 2:47 pm

Is it possible that calculus will be in this event? Neither my partner nor I have taken precalc yet (not offered at our school for our grade level), but we both know basic trig functions and basic logarithms.
I like birds.

2018 Results
Regionals/States
Crime Busters: 1/2
Disease Detectives: 1/5
Hovercraft (both builds failed, rip): 11/9

2019 Results
GGSO
Disease Detectives: 6
Circuit lab:11
Sounds:3

TheSquaad
Member
Member
Posts: 119
Joined: March 18th, 2017, 5:14 pm
Division: C
State: -

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby TheSquaad » January 21st, 2019, 3:17 pm

Birdmusic wrote:Is it possible that calculus will be in this event? Neither my partner nor I have taken precalc yet (not offered at our school for our grade level), but we both know basic trig functions and basic logarithms.


If I recall correctly, MIT had one instance of minor calculus (a single trig function). Considering that MIT is MIT and they often go overboard in difficulty, I wouldn’t worry about calculus too much.

User avatar
UTF-8 U+6211 U+662F
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 1283
Joined: January 18th, 2015, 7:42 am
Division: C
State: PA
Location: (0, 0)
Contact:

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby UTF-8 U+6211 U+662F » January 21st, 2019, 3:29 pm

TheSquaad wrote:
Birdmusic wrote:Is it possible that calculus will be in this event? Neither my partner nor I have taken precalc yet (not offered at our school for our grade level), but we both know basic trig functions and basic logarithms.


If I recall correctly, MIT had one instance of minor calculus (a single trig function). Considering that MIT is MIT and they often go overboard in difficulty, I wouldn’t worry about calculus too much.

Don't worry about calculus.

chrism
Member
Member
Posts: 1
Joined: September 3rd, 2017, 7:00 pm
State: -

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby chrism » January 22nd, 2019, 5:14 pm

markuswso17 wrote:
Riptide wrote:
markuswso17 wrote:The rules state that: "The pitch measurement will be the average value during the 5 seconds.". To me that means that the average will be taken from the entirety of the 5 seconds, and not what looks like the average fundamental.

My bad I thought you were asking from a competitors point of view. If you’re just trying to calibrate your own build then doing the crop thing works. From a proctors point of view I don’t think there’s anything they can really do short of taking the average over a time less than 5 seconds, which is clearly against the rules. No app will just magically not record 0 or strange overtones - it’ll be up to students to build a device that does its best to avoid this by sustaining the note for the entire 5 seconds without having to repeat it while keeping it at a volume that the app will register it at consistently.

It's more of a dear of inconsistency between different tournaments. Do you change the instrument to not have 0Hz as part of the average or do you find a fix to the problem and have all tournaments be the same. To me, having 0Hz as part of the average doesn't seem fair because it also depends on how well an Es's microphone pics up the frequency. There are just a lot of factors that should be figured out and be mentioned officially from Science Olympiad.


The rule clarification on 10/11 changing "best" to "average" opened up a whole host of issues. First, it is not specified how the average is calculated, i.e. how frequently should the app be set to take a reading?, should 0 Hz be included as part of the data set?

Second, the official event supervisor guide on soinc.org, refers to 2 suggested apps, the Accord Chromatic tuner (android only) and Google Science Journal. From our team's experience, the accord tuner only picks up sounds made by the instrument, not background noise or silence between "attacks" on the instrument in calculating the average. Google Science Journal picks up all background noise and silence, and in doing so, distorts the average to a point that it is possible for the same instrument to get a perfect pitch score with the Accord chromatic tuner, and a pitch score of 0 with Google Science Journal. For example, with Google Science Journal measuring 10x per second and a C4 note (262 Hz) that plays for 4.8 s with .2 s of silence, this would lead to a cents difference of 67 and a pitch score of 0.

It seems unlikely that the switch from "best" to "average" was made to over-emphasize the playing of sound over the entire 5 s interval, although that seems to be a major issue now.

Has anyone been to any invitationals and can speak of how the average was calculated and what app was used?

TheSquaad
Member
Member
Posts: 119
Joined: March 18th, 2017, 5:14 pm
Division: C
State: -

Re: Sounds of Music C

Postby TheSquaad » January 23rd, 2019, 5:50 am

chrism wrote:
markuswso17 wrote:
Riptide wrote:My bad I thought you were asking from a competitors point of view. If you’re just trying to calibrate your own build then doing the crop thing works. From a proctors point of view I don’t think there’s anything they can really do short of taking the average over a time less than 5 seconds, which is clearly against the rules. No app will just magically not record 0 or strange overtones - it’ll be up to students to build a device that does its best to avoid this by sustaining the note for the entire 5 seconds without having to repeat it while keeping it at a volume that the app will register it at consistently.

It's more of a dear of inconsistency between different tournaments. Do you change the instrument to not have 0Hz as part of the average or do you find a fix to the problem and have all tournaments be the same. To me, having 0Hz as part of the average doesn't seem fair because it also depends on how well an Es's microphone pics up the frequency. There are just a lot of factors that should be figured out and be mentioned officially from Science Olympiad.


The rule clarification on 10/11 changing "best" to "average" opened up a whole host of issues. First, it is not specified how the average is calculated, i.e. how frequently should the app be set to take a reading?, should 0 Hz be included as part of the data set?

Second, the official event supervisor guide on soinc.org, refers to 2 suggested apps, the Accord Chromatic tuner (android only) and Google Science Journal. From our team's experience, the accord tuner only picks up sounds made by the instrument, not background noise or silence between "attacks" on the instrument in calculating the average. Google Science Journal picks up all background noise and silence, and in doing so, distorts the average to a point that it is possible for the same instrument to get a perfect pitch score with the Accord chromatic tuner, and a pitch score of 0 with Google Science Journal. For example, with Google Science Journal measuring 10x per second and a C4 note (262 Hz) that plays for 4.8 s with .2 s of silence, this would lead to a cents difference of 67 and a pitch score of 0.

It seems unlikely that the switch from "best" to "average" was made to over-emphasize the playing of sound over the entire 5 s interval, although that seems to be a major issue now.

Has anyone been to any invitationals and can speak of how the average was calculated and what app was used?


MIT used Sci Journal. I’d just prepare for the worst and use that as your tuning app.

I feel like this issue would be way less pronounced if they changed “average” to “mode.” I’m guessing they originally changed it from “best” to make sure the instrument is primarily hitting the desired pitch, and “mode” fixes that while also not having background noise or overtones screw the readings up.


Return to “Lab Events”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest