Roller Coaster B

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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby EagleViewMS » March 11th, 2019, 12:33 pm

The new rules for roller coaster have made it really hard for builders. but iT has also made it quite easy. Foir example we can now use clear tubes.

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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby MadCow2357 » March 11th, 2019, 5:30 pm

The new rules..dxijXUjksxbhhb
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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby builderguy135 » March 12th, 2019, 4:06 am

The new rules for roller coaster have made it really hard for builders. but iT has also made it quite easy. Foir example we can now use clear tubes.
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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby sciolyperson1 » April 9th, 2019, 10:02 am

On the bottom of our device, we have 4 leveling legs, similar to these: https://amzn.to/2HFUlwF We can adjust these up and down in order to raise/lower one side of the device.

Rule 3.g. states that: "the overall dimensions of the device may not change during the competition." However, rule 4.c states something else: "Participants may level their Roller Coaster at the beginning of their time to account for an uneven floor or table. Electronic levels may be used but must be removed prior to their first practice or scorable run"

@jander14indoor, since you're the Nationals supervisor, what is your interpretation on how we can level our device? Can we adjust the leveling legs first in the 8 mins provided before you measure our dimensions of the coaster?
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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby jander14indoor » April 9th, 2019, 11:28 am

Sorry, I don't provide definitive answers to rules questions on this list. If you want that you need to go to the national website and submit the question.

My usual general guidance, be careful about challenging the ES to make a ruling against you with your design. It should be REALLY important to maximizing your score. You should have a VERY cogent argument for your view of the world, try it on multiple people with good reading and logic skills. Be careful about the concept (that I hate, but have had to invoke on occasion) about the 'spirit' of the rules.

I can think of several ways to comply with both rules.

I mean the point of leveling is to ensure consistent performance of your coaster, right.
- You could have an outside frame that doesn't change dimensions, while having the inside portion adjustable to level.
- Design device to be relatively robust to smallish changes in level.
- Design device with three feet, then just rotate/move it on the floor to find level. Hmm, that will work in some cases, but not all...

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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby knightmoves » April 10th, 2019, 8:34 am

I know some people who tried to argue (under the old rules) that they had a very short coaster (2cm high, I think) that they were "leveling" by raising one side on a 15cm shim. The ES didn't agree with them.

Rule 4c says you may level your coaster to account for an uneven floor or table. Your legs look like they have much more range of motion than is necessary to account for floor unevenness, which leaves you open to an ES deciding that you are changing the dimensions of your device. Jeff's advice amount not giving the ES an opportunity to think your device might be outside the rules is sensible.

I have heard one second-hand story of an ES ruling that adjustable feet like yours were changing the dimensions of the device, whilst passing all the teams that were using shims and wedges to level their coaster.

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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby SOcoachB » April 10th, 2019, 8:53 am

Sorry, I don't provide definitive answers to rules questions on this list. If you want that you need to go to the national website and submit the question.

My usual general guidance, be careful about challenging the ES to make a ruling against you with your design. It should be REALLY important to maximizing your score. You should have a VERY cogent argument for your view of the world, try it on multiple people with good reading and logic skills. Be careful about the concept (that I hate, but have had to invoke on occasion) about the 'spirit' of the rules.

I can think of several ways to comply with both rules.

I mean the point of leveling is to ensure consistent performance of your coaster, right.
- You could have an outside frame that doesn't change dimensions, while having the inside portion adjustable to level.
- Design device to be relatively robust to smallish changes in level.
- Design device with three feet, then just rotate/move it on the floor to find level. Hmm, that will work in some cases, but not all...

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI
I filed a clarification request on this very subject months ago and got no response. The national organization is really not very good about responding to these requests.

Here is the rule in question:
After retrieving their device from the Impound Area, teams will be given 8 minutes to set up their Roller Coaster and complete up to two scorable runs. Participants may level their Roller Coaster at the beginning of their time to account for an uneven floor or table. Electronic levels may be used but must be removed prior to their first practice or scorable run.
This is easily reconciled, in my view, with rule 3g, which says "the overall dimensions of the device may not change during the competition." A very reasonable interpretation is that teams are allowed to do some leveling adjustment at the beginning of the 8 minutes when they first set down their device. Levelers, shims, whatever. As soon as they do a practice run, however, there is no more opportunity for leveling that may cause device dimensions to change or move the position of the start line.

There really should be clarity about this point.

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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby SOcoachB » April 10th, 2019, 9:21 am

I should add that what counts as leveling to "account for an uneven floor or table" would be rather minor adjustments. The ES should be able to distinguish leveling (where teams are making adjustments according to a level) vs. much more substantial changes in the tilt of a device, and the fact that this must happen before practice runs limits the potential for abuse.

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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby jander14indoor » April 10th, 2019, 11:45 am

I know some people who tried to argue (under the old rules) that they had a very short coaster (2cm high, I think) that they were "leveling" by raising one side on a 15cm shim. The ES didn't agree with them.

<SNIP>

I have heard one second-hand story of an ES ruling that adjustable feet like yours were changing the dimensions of the device, whilst passing all the teams that were using shims and wedges to level their coaster.
First para. hmm, might have had some influence on the rule...
Third para, darn, consistency!! ES must be consistent. The mechanization of the leveling should be treated consistently! Either all are part of the device and must fit, or none are.
<SNIP>
I filed a clarification request on this very subject months ago and got no response. The national organization is really not very good about responding to these requests.
<SNIP>
Sorry, the process is for frequently asked questions, if the powers that be feel it isn't frequent or is obvious, they don't ever forward to the rules committee for discussion.
And I won't go outside the process for reasons of fairness.
- While you have found this site, not all teams are aware of it.
- As wonderful and useful as this site is, it isn't official, or binding on any ES.
- Not all ES are aware of or frequent this site.
- Finally, the official answers are the result of a committee, I give my input, but sometimes they get it wrong and don't agree with me (the audacity!). However, I ALWAYS abide by what is officially published, so again, I don't provide direction on this forum.

Oh, just thought of another way to avoid the problem Have a single high point near, but not in, one corner, by at least a couple of cm. Make sure the device tapers slightly from bottom to top. DON'T adjust the leveler under the high point. Do all leveling with other adjusters. That way you have a reasonable proposal that the overall height, length and width (the only things measured) have not changed! You could even demonstrate before and after. Yes I know that you actually change the height slightly, but if the angle changes are small I'm not sure it would be measurable. Hmm, if I'm doing my trig right, 1 degree would be less 0.01 cm, and 5 degrees (pretty severe) would be 0.2 cm change in height. That would be a real, umm, severe, yeah, that's the word for this forum, severe, ES to call that. Opinion only...

Jeff Anderson
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Re: Roller Coaster B

Postby SOcoachB » April 10th, 2019, 5:09 pm

Thanks for the response, Jeff. Understand that nothing here is official.

One more thought on this: Rule 4c says "participants may level their Roller Coaster." The words "Roller Coaster" imply that this means the entire device, not just internal components.


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