End Task

marty3
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Re: End Task

Postby marty3 » February 11th, 2019, 3:53 pm

Airco2020 wrote:We had a change in how the final action is evaluated at an invitational this weekend. We had read the rules as the platform needs to move 20cm and end up as the highest point of the device when it stops. This is how it had been scored for the first few invitationals we attended. At this one, however, they said no, the rule says it have to move 20cm BEFORE becoming the highest point. That means it needs to move 20cm inside the device before it moves above. That also means it really needs to move MORE than 20cm since it now has to move 20cm and then become the highest point. Neither of our teams this weekend received any points on the final action due to this interpretation.

My question is how is everyone else scoring the end task and is this interpretation the correct one?


That issue came up at a tournament 2 weekends ago, and we didn't allow it for the exact same reason. But why does it have to move more than 20.0 cm?

If you're worried about judges at future tournaments overlooking this, it doesn't hurt to bring it up with them before the first block (ideally at impound).

PM2017 wrote:... the safest way is the correct way.


Great motto for this event.

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Re: End Task

Postby C8H10N4O2! » February 11th, 2019, 5:11 pm

marty3 wrote:
Airco2020 wrote:We had a change in how the final action is evaluated at an invitational this weekend. We had read the rules as the platform needs to move 20cm and end up as the highest point of the device when it stops. This is how it had been scored for the first few invitationals we attended. At this one, however, they said no, the rule says it have to move 20cm BEFORE becoming the highest point. That means it needs to move 20cm inside the device before it moves above. That also means it really needs to move MORE than 20cm since it now has to move 20cm and then become the highest point. Neither of our teams this weekend received any points on the final action due to this interpretation.

My question is how is everyone else scoring the end task and is this interpretation the correct one?


That issue came up at a tournament 2 weekends ago, and we didn't allow it for the exact same reason. But why does it have to move more than 20.0 cm?

If you're worried about judges at future tournaments overlooking this, it doesn't hurt to bring it up with them before the first block (ideally at impound).

PM2017 wrote:... the safest way is the correct way.


Great motto for this event.

I agree with that interpretation. It says that it must rise 20.0cm BEFORE becoming the highest point. Additionally, the part of rising above the device is meant to be hard because you can't have anything pulling the platform up (for the most part), you have to push it.
If anyone is stuck, come up with a way to raise a platform inside the bounds of their device, then add a stilted platform to that so it reaches above. Make sure that the stilted platform rises 20.0 cm, so the other one will need to start lower than you think.

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Re: End Task

Postby Airco2020 » February 12th, 2019, 6:43 am

[That issue came up at a tournament 2 weekends ago, and we didn't allow it for the exact same reason. But why does it have to move more than 20.0 cm?]

Since it has to move 20cm BEFORE that means at 19.5cm it can't become the highest point, only AFTER 20cm can it become the highest point. So technically you could move 20.1cm but you'd need to prove it all happened correctly. Safer to move 20 in the box and another couple cm above?

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Re: End Task

Postby ScottMaurer19 » February 12th, 2019, 7:26 am

Airco2020 wrote:[That issue came up at a tournament 2 weekends ago, and we didn't allow it for the exact same reason. But why does it have to move more than 20.0 cm?]

Since it has to move 20cm BEFORE that means at 19.5cm it can't become the highest point, only AFTER 20cm can it become the highest point. So technically you could move 20.1cm but you'd need to prove it all happened correctly. Safer to move 20 in the box and another couple cm above?

I interpreted it as needing to move 20cm within the box itself. Otherwise it cannot become the highest point AFTER 20cm. It would be the highest point before moving a full 20cm and therefore not count for points (nor technically stop the run time unless it somehow didn't raise 20cm before reaching the top due to some unintentional device failure such as a lever accidentally leaving the top dimension and increasing where the top dimension of the device is).
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Placements:
2017 (r/s/n):
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Rocks: 1/1/1

2018 (r/s/n):
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Re: End Task

Postby Airco2020 » February 12th, 2019, 12:40 pm

ScottMaurer19 wrote:I interpreted it as needing to move 20cm within the box itself. Otherwise it cannot become the highest point AFTER 20cm. It would be the highest point before moving a full 20cm and therefore not count for points (nor technically stop the run time unless it somehow didn't raise 20cm before reaching the top due to some unintentional device failure such as a lever accidentally leaving the top dimension and increasing where the top dimension of the device is).


I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My device moves a total of 21cm. It's currently set up to move about 15 in the box and then about 6 above the box so it's the highest point. The judges didn't give any points for the final action since it didn't move 20cm Before becoming the highest point. So my solution is I need to find a way to lower my platform so it can move 20cm in the box and then that final 1cm travel I have needs to be above the box. Or I need to find a new solution that travels more the 21cm.

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Re: End Task

Postby ScottMaurer19 » February 12th, 2019, 1:22 pm

Airco2020 wrote:
ScottMaurer19 wrote:I interpreted it as needing to move 20cm within the box itself. Otherwise it cannot become the highest point AFTER 20cm. It would be the highest point before moving a full 20cm and therefore not count for points (nor technically stop the run time unless it somehow didn't raise 20cm before reaching the top due to some unintentional device failure such as a lever accidentally leaving the top dimension and increasing where the top dimension of the device is).


I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My device moves a total of 21cm. It's currently set up to move about 15 in the box and then about 6 above the box so it's the highest point. The judges didn't give any points for the final action since it didn't move 20cm Before becoming the highest point. So my solution is I need to find a way to lower my platform so it can move 20cm in the box and then that final 1cm travel I have needs to be above the box. Or I need to find a new solution that travels more the 21cm.

Your platform (IMO) needs to move at least 20cm within the measured "box" before becoming the highest point. It doesn't matter if it moves 50 cm in total or 21 cm in total as long as the platform moves 20 vertical cm within the measured device dimensions.
Solon '19 Captain
Placements:
2017 (r/s/n):
Hydro: 3/5/18
Robot Arm: na/1/1
Rocks: 1/1/1

2018 (r/s/n):
Heli: 2/1/7
Herp: 1/4/4
Mission: 1/1/6
Rocks: 1/1/1
Eco: 6/3/9

2019 (r/s/n):
Dynamic: n/a
Fossils: 1/1
GLM: 1/1
Herp: 1/1
Mission: 1/1
WS: 4/1

Top 3 Placements: 141
Golds: 78

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Re: End Task

Postby Airco2020 » February 12th, 2019, 1:38 pm

ScottMaurer19 wrote:
Airco2020 wrote:
ScottMaurer19 wrote:I interpreted it as needing to move 20cm within the box itself. Otherwise it cannot become the highest point AFTER 20cm. It would be the highest point before moving a full 20cm and therefore not count for points (nor technically stop the run time unless it somehow didn't raise 20cm before reaching the top due to some unintentional device failure such as a lever accidentally leaving the top dimension and increasing where the top dimension of the device is).


I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My device moves a total of 21cm. It's currently set up to move about 15 in the box and then about 6 above the box so it's the highest point. The judges didn't give any points for the final action since it didn't move 20cm Before becoming the highest point. So my solution is I need to find a way to lower my platform so it can move 20cm in the box and then that final 1cm travel I have needs to be above the box. Or I need to find a new solution that travels more the 21cm.

Your platform (IMO) needs to move at least 20cm within the measured "box" before becoming the highest point. It doesn't matter if it moves 50 cm in total or 21 cm in total as long as the platform moves 20 vertical cm within the measured device dimensions.


Agreed!

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Re: End Task

Postby PM2017 » February 12th, 2019, 1:49 pm

Airco2020 wrote:
ScottMaurer19 wrote:I interpreted it as needing to move 20cm within the box itself. Otherwise it cannot become the highest point AFTER 20cm. It would be the highest point before moving a full 20cm and therefore not count for points (nor technically stop the run time unless it somehow didn't raise 20cm before reaching the top due to some unintentional device failure such as a lever accidentally leaving the top dimension and increasing where the top dimension of the device is).


I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My device moves a total of 21cm. It's currently set up to move about 15 in the box and then about 6 above the box so it's the highest point. The judges didn't give any points for the final action since it didn't move 20cm Before becoming the highest point. So my solution is I need to find a way to lower my platform so it can move 20cm in the box and then that final 1cm travel I have needs to be above the box. Or I need to find a new solution that travels more the 21cm.

If you need a fast fix, you could always attach a popsicle stick or something to the frame so that the highest point is ~0.5 cm lower than the highest point of your lift. You would lose ~ 5 points, given the values you told us, but it's a pretty good payoff lol.


EDIT: Unless you're already at 60x60x55 or something, in which case it's probably fairly easy to adjust where your lift is. (IDK why you would be at those dimensions anyways.)
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Re: End Task

Postby CookiePie1 » February 12th, 2019, 2:17 pm

PM2017 wrote:
Airco2020 wrote:
ScottMaurer19 wrote:I interpreted it as needing to move 20cm within the box itself. Otherwise it cannot become the highest point AFTER 20cm. It would be the highest point before moving a full 20cm and therefore not count for points (nor technically stop the run time unless it somehow didn't raise 20cm before reaching the top due to some unintentional device failure such as a lever accidentally leaving the top dimension and increasing where the top dimension of the device is).


I'm not sure I understand what you mean. My device moves a total of 21cm. It's currently set up to move about 15 in the box and then about 6 above the box so it's the highest point. The judges didn't give any points for the final action since it didn't move 20cm Before becoming the highest point. So my solution is I need to find a way to lower my platform so it can move 20cm in the box and then that final 1cm travel I have needs to be above the box. Or I need to find a new solution that travels more the 21cm.

If you need a fast fix, you could always attach a popsicle stick or something to the frame so that the highest point is ~0.5 cm lower than the highest point of your lift. You would lose ~ 5 points, given the values you told us, but it's a pretty good payoff lol.


EDIT: Unless you're already at 60x60x55 or something, in which case it's probably fairly easy to adjust where your lift is. (IDK why you would be at those dimensions anyways.)


I know that many of the teams I see at invies have really big devices, almost about to cross dimensions. It doesn't really make sense, especially given the fact that much of the space isn't even used.
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Re: End Task

Postby Airco2020 » February 12th, 2019, 2:38 pm

PM2017 wrote:[
If you need a fast fix, you could always attach a popsicle stick or something to the frame so that the highest point is ~0.5 cm lower than the highest point of your lift. You would lose ~ 5 points, given the values you told us, but it's a pretty good payoff lol.


EDIT: Unless you're already at 60x60x55 or something, in which case it's probably fairly easy to adjust where your lift is. (IDK why you would be at those dimensions anyways.)


Great idea. We can put it right next to the platform so there is no confusion that the platform finishes as the highest point. We currently get 76 of the possible 90 points for size so giving up 5 is OK. I don't want to completely redesign an action that works perfectly. I guess the major frustration is that it's been run twice without question including one 1st place and then was completely regected :evil: .

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Re: End Task

Postby PM2017 » February 12th, 2019, 3:35 pm

Airco2020 wrote:
PM2017 wrote:[
If you need a fast fix, you could always attach a popsicle stick or something to the frame so that the highest point is ~0.5 cm lower than the highest point of your lift. You would lose ~ 5 points, given the values you told us, but it's a pretty good payoff lol.


EDIT: Unless you're already at 60x60x55 or something, in which case it's probably fairly easy to adjust where your lift is. (IDK why you would be at those dimensions anyways.)


Great idea. We can put it right next to the platform so there is no confusion that the platform finishes as the highest point. We currently get 76 of the possible 90 points for size so giving up 5 is OK. I don't want to completely redesign an action that works perfectly. I guess the major frustration is that it's been run twice without question including one 1st place and then was completely regected :evil: .

Oh, I just had another idea -- you could make this extension removable, and you could ask the event supervisors at the day of what their interpretation of the rule is, and if they are ok with the interpretation that the platform slides a total of 20 cm (regardless of when it crosses the upper boundary) you can remove that popsicle stick, saving 5 points.
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Re: End Task

Postby diplodocus » February 20th, 2019, 9:43 am

Hello all! I have a question regarding the platform. It says it has to be the same dimensions on all sides... does this mean the platform is essentially a cube? Or does the same dimension clause only refer to the top surface of the platform?

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Re: End Task

Postby CookiePie1 » February 20th, 2019, 10:16 am

diplodocus wrote:Hello all! I have a question regarding the platform. It says it has to be the same dimensions on all sides... does this mean the platform is essentially a cube? Or does the same dimension clause only refer to the top surface of the platform?


Yes, it only refers to the top surface. I used 1 in pine for my platform and haven't had a problem yet.
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Re: End Task

Postby diplodocus » February 20th, 2019, 10:27 am

CookiePie1 wrote:
diplodocus wrote:Hello all! I have a question regarding the platform. It says it has to be the same dimensions on all sides... does this mean the platform is essentially a cube? Or does the same dimension clause only refer to the top surface of the platform?


Yes, it only refers to the top surface. I used 1 in pine for my platform and haven't had a problem yet.


Thanks for the answer! I was thrown into this event and I have a week to build a functioning machine (and I have no idea what I'm doing lol)... I have another question then. Is there a limit on the height of the platform then? Would 2 inches tall for the platform be too much?

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Re: End Task

Postby Vortexx » February 20th, 2019, 10:36 am

diplodocus wrote:
CookiePie1 wrote:
diplodocus wrote:Hello all! I have a question regarding the platform. It says it has to be the same dimensions on all sides... does this mean the platform is essentially a cube? Or does the same dimension clause only refer to the top surface of the platform?


Yes, it only refers to the top surface. I used 1 in pine for my platform and haven't had a problem yet.


Thanks for the answer! I was thrown into this event and I have a week to build a functioning machine (and I have no idea what I'm doing lol)... I have another question then. Is there a limit on the height of the platform then? Would 2 inches tall for the platform be too much?


I don't believe there is a limit on the platform height. As for the 2 inches, it depends on your device. Since you only have a week to build a mission, I assume you won't be limited on space so if you need 2 inches then I'd say go for it. Just remember that your battery & platform travel 20 cm before becoming the top of the device or else it won't count. Good luck!
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