Thermodynamics B/C

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by knightmoves » December 23rd, 2018, 12:08 pm

jgrischow1 wrote: So we are still trying to wrap our heads around the Division B graph/table. Since volume and time don't change for B, to me, the most useful chart would be a table, not a graph, of, for example, a certain starting temp (like 60 C), 100 mL volume, and "number of trial" in one column and "ending temp" in the other. Would this satisfy the scoring requirements? Any advice is appreciated.
For max points, you need 4 graphs / tables, each with at least 10 points.

I don't think your table of "number of trial vs ending temp" (presumably you intend 4 tables at different start temperatures) would count (I'd call it a good measurement of one datapoint), but I could see an ES choosing to score it.

It's worth pointing out that the graphs/tables that you score don't have to be the same as the graphs/tables that you use for your computation.

(Volume changes at the state level and above.)

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by UTF-8 U+6211 U+662F » December 23rd, 2018, 1:42 pm

knightmoves wrote:
jgrischow1 wrote: So we are still trying to wrap our heads around the Division B graph/table. Since volume and time don't change for B, to me, the most useful chart would be a table, not a graph, of, for example, a certain starting temp (like 60 C), 100 mL volume, and "number of trial" in one column and "ending temp" in the other. Would this satisfy the scoring requirements? Any advice is appreciated.
For max points, you need 4 graphs / tables, each with at least 10 points.

I don't think your table of "number of trial vs ending temp" (presumably you intend 4 tables at different start temperatures) would count (I'd call it a good measurement of one datapoint), but I could see an ES choosing to score it.

It's worth pointing out that the graphs/tables that you score don't have to be the same as the graphs/tables that you use for your computation.

(Volume changes at the state level and above.)
I would recommend a graph of starting temp vs ending temp. Yes it'd take a while (maybe a day of testing), but I think it'd be worth it.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by jgrischow1 » December 27th, 2018, 10:38 am

CPScienceDude wrote:
jgrischow1 wrote:
chalker wrote:
What you are seeing is the result of us trying to avoid having 2 sets of the rules, one for Div B and one for Div C. We have limited space in the rules and sometimes cut corners a little bit on explaining things that are different between the divisions.

Note however, that just because the competition itself is limited to a specific volume or temperature or time range, that doesn't mean you can't do testing ahead of time using a range of those and present that data on the charts.
So we are still trying to wrap our heads around the Division B graph/table. Since volume and time don't change for B, to me, the most useful chart would be a table, not a graph, of, for example, a certain starting temp (like 60 C), 100 mL volume, and "number of trial" in one column and "ending temp" in the other. Would this satisfy the scoring requirements? Any advice is appreciated.
What I did was made my chart a relationship between temperature and time. I had an invitational on Saturday and my coach is giving us our tests and stuff back on Tuesday. I'll let you know if that worked out.
Thanks.
knightmoves wrote:
jgrischow1 wrote: So we are still trying to wrap our heads around the Division B graph/table. Since volume and time don't change for B, to me, the most useful chart would be a table, not a graph, of, for example, a certain starting temp (like 60 C), 100 mL volume, and "number of trial" in one column and "ending temp" in the other. Would this satisfy the scoring requirements? Any advice is appreciated.
For max points, you need 4 graphs / tables, each with at least 10 points.

I don't think your table of "number of trial vs ending temp" (presumably you intend 4 tables at different start temperatures) would count (I'd call it a good measurement of one datapoint), but I could see an ES choosing to score it.

It's worth pointing out that the graphs/tables that you score don't have to be the same as the graphs/tables that you use for your computation.

(Volume changes at the state level and above.)
Thanks.
UTF-8 U+6211 U+662F wrote:
knightmoves wrote:
jgrischow1 wrote: So we are still trying to wrap our heads around the Division B graph/table. Since volume and time don't change for B, to me, the most useful chart would be a table, not a graph, of, for example, a certain starting temp (like 60 C), 100 mL volume, and "number of trial" in one column and "ending temp" in the other. Would this satisfy the scoring requirements? Any advice is appreciated.
For max points, you need 4 graphs / tables, each with at least 10 points.

I don't think your table of "number of trial vs ending temp" (presumably you intend 4 tables at different start temperatures) would count (I'd call it a good measurement of one datapoint), but I could see an ES choosing to score it.

It's worth pointing out that the graphs/tables that you score don't have to be the same as the graphs/tables that you use for your computation.

(Volume changes at the state level and above.)
I would recommend a graph of starting temp vs ending temp. Yes it'd take a while (maybe a day of testing), but I think it'd be worth it.
Thanks.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by geniusjohn5 » January 7th, 2019, 9:44 pm

I have a couple questions regarding sig figs on the written exam. 1)How many should be in the final answer and 2) For constants such as water's specific heat capacity, should I use 4.2 or 4.184 (btw, this is just an example) ?
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by knightmoves » January 7th, 2019, 10:36 pm

geniusjohn5 wrote:I have a couple questions regarding sig figs on the written exam. 1)How many should be in the final answer and 2) For constants such as water's specific heat capacity, should I use 4.2 or 4.184 (btw, this is just an example) ?
Never throw away information in the middle of a calculation. This is always wrong. Round at the very end, and nowhere else. (This means don't use 4.2 if you have a better number.)

You use the correct number of sig figs in your answer. To what precision does your instrument measure temperature? How well do you know the specific heat capacity, the mass of the water or whatever else? There is no one correct answer - it depends on how many sig figs you are given the information in the question to.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by UTF-8 U+6211 U+662F » January 8th, 2019, 12:19 pm

knightmoves wrote:
geniusjohn5 wrote:I have a couple questions regarding sig figs on the written exam. 1)How many should be in the final answer and 2) For constants such as water's specific heat capacity, should I use 4.2 or 4.184 (btw, this is just an example) ?
Never throw away information in the middle of a calculation. This is always wrong. Round at the very end, and nowhere else. (This means don't use 4.2 if you have a better number.)

You use the correct number of sig figs in your answer. To what precision does your instrument measure temperature? How well do you know the specific heat capacity, the mass of the water or whatever else? There is no one correct answer - it depends on how many sig figs you are given the information in the question to.
To add to this, I would ask the event supervisor whether significant figures are important for the test because sometimes the test is written with no attention to significant figures.

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by C8H10N4O2! » January 13th, 2019, 12:01 pm

I competed in this event at MIT this past weekend. The test was nice, difficult and long (or at least I thought so). A nice variety of free response questions that took us a while to get through and we didnt even realize there was mc until the very end. Overall pretty happy with the test.
The build part was not run the best in my opinion. They gave us the specifications at the beginning of the block. But when another person asked for the current room temp, one of the proctors said it was actually around 23, not 20.6. This wouldnt have affected calcs too much, though. However, their method of distributing the water was putting it in a beaker and carrying it around the room, pouring it in a graduated cylinder in front of each person, then into their device. Since I was in the front of the room, and the worked from the back to the front, I dont think the water was still at 65deg C when they reached us. Also, the rules explicitly state that we would get about 5 minutes after receiving the water, but they wanted our prediction before the put the water in our device.
At another invitational I competed at this year, they managed to get labquests for every team in a session, so we could see what the temperature was for the room. They had one of the proctors distribute water (we went up to them) by using a big syringe from the source water, and then putting it directly into our device, as another proctor started our labquest collection data, which was set up to stop data collection at 25 min (the time in this event).
That being said, this event was run pretty well at MIT--there were no timing issues, and everyone was able to finish (and all devices tested) before the end of the block (actually got out early, but that could be because of the hour long block timeframe).

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by JoeyC » January 13th, 2019, 12:30 pm

Thermo is never run properly. Just too many things that can go wrong, whether or not the ES reads the rules (and quite a few don't :cry: ). It used to be worst last year, the rules were more vague, so I got dunked on at state. It's just luck man.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by TheChiScientist » January 13th, 2019, 4:11 pm

JoeyC wrote:Thermo is never run properly. Just too many things that can go wrong, whether or not the ES reads the rules (and quite a few don't :cry: ). It used to be worst last year, the rules were more vague, so I got dunked on at state. It's just luck man.
Omg, you have no idea how bad Thermo can get... Thermo was thrown out last year at ISO States! A STATE tournament! Make sure you know the rules for this event very well! :(
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C

Post by JoeyC » January 13th, 2019, 4:41 pm

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU KNOW THE RULES
Last year state, the test wasn't on Thermo, the event supervisors didn't give us the correct room temperature, had to restart the lab portion, and had to measure the temperature after everyone was gone (because they restarted it), and from the looks of it they measured the final temperature incorrectly.
All the good teams failed and the weak guys lucked out. and guess what? THAT MADE OUR SCHOOL NOT PLACE.
fun times. fun times.
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