Thermodynamics B/C Build

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby lianasv » January 27th, 2019, 4:28 pm

John Richardsim wrote:
lianasv wrote:hmm, yesterday at the COBRA invitational in MI, they left the thermometer in the beaker for the whole 25 min when measuring the temperature. Is that allowed since the heat is escaping my device by the thermometer??

There's a statement in the rules in section 4.f. saying that they can do this, but it they must announce that they are doing so before impound.

weird, they didn't say anything in impound.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby builder83 » February 1st, 2019, 7:24 am

It was discussed how not to get your beaker stuck when using spray foam. If I am understanding the rules correctly, can you make it so your beaker is stuck in the foam as long as there is access to the top?

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby Creationist127 » February 1st, 2019, 8:54 am

builder83 wrote:It was discussed how not to get your beaker stuck when using spray foam. If I am understanding the rules correctly, can you make it so your beaker is stuck in the foam as long as there is access to the top?

3.c (emphasis added): "Within the device, participants must be able to insert and remove a beaker that they supply."
So, no. Besides, if you did that, putting the water in might splash your device, which, depending on your materials, could be bad for the device.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby builder83 » February 2nd, 2019, 3:47 am

I also assume it is pretty common practice to take your own temp reading after water has been given by ES? This can be done after bringing device back to table in the first 3 minutes? Thanks in advance

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby JoeyC » February 2nd, 2019, 4:01 am

Yes. Always do this as somewhere in the transfer of the water to your beaker the temperature has already drooped~3-5*C.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby CPScienceDude » February 2nd, 2019, 4:38 am

JoeyC wrote:Yes. Always do this as somewhere in the transfer of the water to your beaker the temperature has already drooped~3-5*C.

I’d say that’s a little generous. I always loose around 8*C when pouring water into the beaker.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby as1092 » February 2nd, 2019, 11:17 am

CookiePie1 wrote:
takuramen89 wrote:Hi guys,
So it's my second year on thermodynamics and last year I did pretty well on thermo. For reference here's the equation for my build's prediction last year, usually, it was 1-3 Degrees off at most.

Final Temp = 25 + (Initial temp - 25)e^ ((0.0000848(v) -0.0212)t)
t= time, v = volume (mL)

I used aerogel thermal wrapping inside and used Styrofoam for the actual box. Most attachments were done with hot glue/ ducktape.
So, I really want to make my build even better this year and a lot of the new rules I know are going to help make it better, but does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks                                                                                                                                                                                              


There's always a way to make things better. If you want, you can try gluing your device together with a stronger, more permanent adhesive. Since you have a whole season ahead of you, you could even try dabbling with vacuums and such. You can be really creative. Test-wise, you could learn more material and history. There's always something you can do to make it better.


Hey! How did you come up with that equation. Right now, our graphs are simply the temperature in relation to the time at specific volumes. How do combine all the data points up for multiple trials to get one equation?

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby CPScienceDude » February 2nd, 2019, 11:21 am

as1092 wrote:
CookiePie1 wrote:
takuramen89 wrote:Hi guys,
So it's my second year on thermodynamics and last year I did pretty well on thermo. For reference here's the equation for my build's prediction last year, usually, it was 1-3 Degrees off at most.

Final Temp = 25 + (Initial temp - 25)e^ ((0.0000848(v) -0.0212)t)
t= time, v = volume (mL)

I used aerogel thermal wrapping inside and used Styrofoam for the actual box. Most attachments were done with hot glue/ ducktape.
So, I really want to make my build even better this year and a lot of the new rules I know are going to help make it better, but does anyone have any suggestions?
Thanks                                                                                                                                                                                              


There's always a way to make things better. If you want, you can try gluing your device together with a stronger, more permanent adhesive. Since you have a whole season ahead of you, you could even try dabbling with vacuums and such. You can be really creative. Test-wise, you could learn more material and history. There's always something you can do to make it better.


Hey! How did you come up with that equation. Right now, our graphs are simply the temperature in relation to the time at specific volumes. How do combine all the data points up for multiple trials to get one equation?

I too, would love to get some insight on this. Right now I just use multiple trails to find the average heat retention of my device (78%) and multiply the source bath temp by that number.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby CookiePie1 » February 2nd, 2019, 12:49 pm

CPScienceDude wrote:
as1092 wrote:
CookiePie1 wrote:
There's always a way to make things better. If you want, you can try gluing your device together with a stronger, more permanent adhesive. Since you have a whole season ahead of you, you could even try dabbling with vacuums and such. You can be really creative. Test-wise, you could learn more material and history. There's always something you can do to make it better.


Hey! How did you come up with that equation. Right now, our graphs are simply the temperature in relation to the time at specific volumes. How do combine all the data points up for multiple trials to get one equation?

I too, would love to get some insight on this. Right now I just use multiple trails to find the average heat retention of my device (78%) and multiply the source bath temp by that number.


I'm pretty sure the equations people use are just based off of Newton's Law of Cooling. However, I wouldn't really reccomend basing predictions off of an equation because we don't live in an idealized world, and it's overall more accurate to just take enough trials to be able to predict for a given temperature, volume, and time.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby geniusjohn5 » February 2nd, 2019, 1:48 pm

So let me get this straight: for the building portion of the event, do I just construct a small box made out of heat resistant material (styrofoam, cardboard, etc.) and that's it?
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby CPScienceDude » February 2nd, 2019, 1:50 pm

geniusjohn5 wrote:So let me get this straight: for the building portion of the event, do I just construct a small box made out of heat resistant material (styrofoam, cardboard, etc.) and that's it?

Yup pretty much. And make sure it follows all the construction parameters too. Though, why are you asking this so late in the season? Just curious.
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby UTF-8 U+6211 U+662F » February 2nd, 2019, 2:04 pm

CPScienceDude wrote:
geniusjohn5 wrote:So let me get this straight: for the building portion of the event, do I just construct a small box made out of heat resistant material (styrofoam, cardboard, etc.) and that's it?

Yup pretty much. And make sure it follows all the construction parameters too. Though, why are you asking this so late in the season? Just curious.

A bunch of the regionals haven't happened yet

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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby geniusjohn5 » February 2nd, 2019, 5:47 pm

CPScienceDude wrote:
geniusjohn5 wrote:So let me get this straight: for the building portion of the event, do I just construct a small box made out of heat resistant material (styrofoam, cardboard, etc.) and that's it?

Yup pretty much. And make sure it follows all the construction parameters too. Though, why are you asking this so late in the season? Just curious.


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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby CPScienceDude » February 2nd, 2019, 6:02 pm

geniusjohn5 wrote:
CPScienceDude wrote:
geniusjohn5 wrote:So let me get this straight: for the building portion of the event, do I just construct a small box made out of heat resistant material (styrofoam, cardboard, etc.) and that's it?

Yup pretty much. And make sure it follows all the construction parameters too. Though, why are you asking this so late in the season? Just curious.


The original person who was doing this event quit. So I filled in.

Ah, makes sense. Anyway, good luck and happy building!
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Re: Thermodynamics B/C Build

Postby pepperonipi » February 3rd, 2019, 1:44 am

CookiePie1 wrote:
CPScienceDude wrote:
as1092 wrote:
Hey! How did you come up with that equation. Right now, our graphs are simply the temperature in relation to the time at specific volumes. How do combine all the data points up for multiple trials to get one equation?

I too, would love to get some insight on this. Right now I just use multiple trails to find the average heat retention of my device (78%) and multiply the source bath temp by that number.


I'm pretty sure the equations people use are just based off of Newton's Law of Cooling. However, I wouldn't really reccomend basing predictions off of an equation because we don't live in an idealized world, and it's overall more accurate to just take enough trials to be able to predict for a given temperature, volume, and time.


Yes, I believe they are based on Newton's Law of Cooling. Also, yep, often times just taking many device tests with varying values will work will enough to produce a good prediction. This is what my team does and it has worked well in the past. However, if you can find a good equation that predicts the device temperature well, then you may have something very good on your hands!
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