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Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 14th, 2019, 1:08 pm
by annabelle0308
I'm writing this in preparation for the 2019-2020 competition. The rules manual hasn't come out yet but I have a few general questions. I've never done this event or any flight events before, but I have done building events. As a beginner, is it best to
a. Design my own plane and not order any kit
b. Design my own plane and order the Freedom Flight kit to use it's instructions and apply them to my own construction
c. Assemble a plane from the Freedom Flight kit and not design my own plane

If a or b, what are some resources I could use to aid in a successful design?
If b or c, when and where can I order the kit?

In addition, does anybody have any recommendations as to which additional 3 data parameters to add to the flight log (assuming the rules regarding the flight log stay the same for the upcoming year)?

Also, I know the competition allows 2 planes and 2 official flights. Is it better to fly the same plane twice to reduce variability? And if I intend on flying the same plane twice, could I still bring a second plane as a back-up?

Finally, any tips for a complete beginner?

Thanks!
Annabelle

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 14th, 2019, 1:35 pm
by klastyioer
I'm writing this in preparation for the 2019-2020 competition. The rules manual hasn't come out yet but I have a few general questions. I've never done this event or any flight events before, but I have done building events. As a beginner, is it best to
a. Design my own plane and not order any kit
b. Design my own plane and order the Freedom Flight kit to use it's instructions and apply them to my own construction
c. Assemble a plane from the Freedom Flight kit and not design my own plane

If a or b, what are some resources I could use to aid in a successful design?
If b or c, when and where can I order the kit?

In addition, does anybody have any recommendations as to which additional 3 data parameters to add to the flight log (assuming the rules regarding the flight log stay the same for the upcoming year)?

Also, I know the competition allows 2 planes and 2 official flights. Is it better to fly the same plane twice to reduce variability? And if I intend on flying the same plane twice, could I still bring a second plane as a back-up?

Finally, any tips for a complete beginner?

Thanks!
Annabelle
yo annabelle glad you decided to join flight events! personally i think the best but i might be a *tad* biased
amazing questions btw, i'll try to answer them to the best of my ability
most of my friends seem to do better with starting just the kit. balancing custom planes takes a lot of time skill but also guidance from a coach, which many schools do not have. i personally think it's best to just follow the instructions of the kit, which is full of plenty of knowledge already (yes i'm calling out all the people who don't bother reading the kit instructions). i would recommend the freedom flight or senior flier kits from freedom flight and j and h aerospace if you have a good budget provided by yourself or your school. they're fairly pricy compared to some other kits (usually 50-60 dollars without tax and shipping). if you don't have that much money, go with something like the laser cut planes or guru engineering kits. never EVER use the ward sci kits, they're the only officially approved kit but they suck... no offense to the people who make them. whatever you do... always.follow.the.instructions. the people who make the kits will have a 99% chance of knowing more than you do... so listen to them.
for the extra parameters, i tend to just do things like motor length, height estimation, which plane you used (usually you want to have more than one), location in which you flew the plane, mass of the motor, tbh i don't rly remember what the required ones are so sry if i repeated any.
yes it is better to just fly one plane, however, it all depends on how your trim/first flight went. depending on the temperature and conditions of the room and the overall performance of the plane. some planes will do better in certain conditions such as available flying space, temperature, draft direction and strength of the draft, stuff like that. if all goes well, use the first plane twice. if you need to switch it up, use the second plane.
some tips would be to fly as much as you can and ALWAYS RECORD IN YOUR FLIGHT LOG. it's literally your best friend and the ppl on here can't stress that enough. you can also record your flights w a phone or camera, which is especially helpful if you want to analyze over and over again, or if you need to send your flights to someone for help. never post any of your flights to random people you know since they can use your information to their advantage. if you ever need help, try messaging one of the active members on his sub forum. be weary of who are your top enemies. at competitions, take notes on others flights and strategies to improve your own. be aware that you CANNOT record anyone's flight or take any pictures unless verbal consent is given to the supervisors from the competing team. even then, you shouldn't do it anyways because it's not much help and it could get your team into some serious trouble. be sure to make new motors once your old ones have worn out and alwyas check your incidence angles before any given flight. focus focus focus, never give up. i guess that's all for now, be sure to message me if you have any questions! best of luck to you and your team this season!

katie

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 14th, 2019, 2:18 pm
by annabelle0308
Hi Katie,
Thanks so much for responding so quickly and with such thorough advise! I have a couple followup questions.

J and H aerospace appears to have a kit available for pre-order for the 2019-2020 school year. Would you recommend this kit so I can start trimming ASAP or would waiting for the Freedom Flight be better?

Is buying a winder separately necessary? Can't you just wind up the motor manually?

Do you recommend any specific materials from specific brands? Like glue or things like that.

To launch the plane is there a launcher or something or do you just yeet it manually?

The device must be labelled, but where would there be room enough to label it? Also does the label just include the school and team name or also the team number or other things?

Thanks again!
Annabelle

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 14th, 2019, 3:48 pm
by builderguy135
Hi Katie,
Thanks so much for responding so quickly and with such thorough advise! I have a couple followup questions.

J and H aerospace appears to have a kit available for pre-order for the 2019-2020 school year. Would you recommend this kit so I can start trimming ASAP or would waiting for the Freedom Flight be better?

Is buying a winder separately necessary? Can't you just wind up the motor manually?

Do you recommend any specific materials from specific brands? Like glue or things like that.

To launch the plane is there a launcher or something or do you just yeet it manually?

The device must be labelled, but where would there be room enough to label it? Also does the label just include the school and team name or also the team number or other things?

Thanks again!
Annabelle
Im not Katie :\ but I can also answer your questions.

J+H is a great place to start. Definitely recommend this kit to start trimming asap. FF generally releases early November(?) but I could be wrong. Buying both kits might give you a good idea of the designs of planes this year if you want to make a plane yourself without a kit.

A winder is extremely necessary! Winding the motor manually takes forever, and you don't have that time while competing.

Glue: I heard duco cement was good but I don't use it. Superglue is alright as well.

The only time you launch the plane is in gliders. This isn't gliders, and the plane will probably break if you yeet it upwards. There is no benefit to yeeting the plane at all. To launch, walk at the speed it normally flies at and gently release it forward. Do not give it an upwards angle, as it might stall. Stay as close as possible to the ground during the launch, so the plane is around 1 ft. off the ground.

For labelling the plane, write it on the fuselage. I always write my name, school, and team number on my plane.

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 14th, 2019, 7:03 pm
by klastyioer
Hi Katie,
Thanks so much for responding so quickly and with such thorough advise! I have a couple followup questions.

J and H aerospace appears to have a kit available for pre-order for the 2019-2020 school year. Would you recommend this kit so I can start trimming ASAP or would waiting for the Freedom Flight be better?

Is buying a winder separately necessary? Can't you just wind up the motor manually?

Do you recommend any specific materials from specific brands? Like glue or things like that.

To launch the plane is there a launcher or something or do you just yeet it manually?

The device must be labelled, but where would there be room enough to label it? Also does the label just include the school and team name or also the team number or other things?

Thanks again!
Annabelle
hey no problem i get email notifications so i'll see these pretty fast
i would pre order the kit and try to get a head start especially with this event because it's so time consuming. if you want to buy the ff kit later on that's a great option too.
a winder imo is very necessary, you'll thank me later. 10:1 or 15:1 winders are most common in this event. you can get them pretty much on any indoor free flight website. you can also buy the ama alpha kit on the ama website for fairly cheap it comes with a 20:1 winder and cool lil plane you can play with.
as for brands i'll list a few
you'll need some sort of spray adhesive - 3m -77 works great
for coverings on the wings and stab you'll need mylar which you usually get in your provided kit or a plastic produce bag from the grocery. they're heavier though more durable, cheaper, and more accessible. if the mass rule for the plane stays heavy this year, it won't be a problem to use a heavier covering.
if you go the custom plane route which i don't recommend for your stance in this category of events, specialized balsa is a great company. sig also provides good balsa sheets for indoor free flight.
for glue i disagree with allen. i like to use duco since it is a soluble glue with acetone, making it easier for adjustments. it's also necessary for things like paper tubes. as for super glue, any cyanoacrylate glue that's medium viscosity is great. bob smith industries makes 1 and 2 oz bottles of insta cure gap filling which is great for any balsa event. don't get anything but the medium viscosity. also don't purchase the un cure cause it doesn't work well. the glue will stick to your hands a lot if you ever get your hand stuck to something (or someone) press down and twist. don't pull... trust me it hurts. usually takes a day to come off fully.
japanese tissue paper for tissue tubes or for the bonus covering.. if that's still a thing this year
propellers from ikara, though they should already be provided in the kit
x acto knives #11 blades from a local crafts store or single/double edge razor blade. you're going to want to get a lot and always work with a sharp blade
basic things like sharp pencils sharpies pens and all that jazz just to have when you're building and testing
i think that's it but i'll let you know fin there's more
also, if you do end up using custom rubber, go to fai sports tan start with size 3/16 1/2 or 1 pound box. you'll also need a rubber striper which is like 200 bucks but it pays off in the end
you don't yeet it per say, you kinda just let it go
for the labeling, the motor stick is where you would put your school name and team number, provided at the competitions you'll go to. i can maybe send a picture of labeled plane parts once i get back from vacation, if i still have it >_>
anyways feel free to keep asking questions these are great and we are all here to help with anything you need

katie

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 14th, 2019, 9:14 pm
by builderguy135
Hi Katie,
Thanks so much for responding so quickly and with such thorough advise! I have a couple followup questions.

J and H aerospace appears to have a kit available for pre-order for the 2019-2020 school year. Would you recommend this kit so I can start trimming ASAP or would waiting for the Freedom Flight be better?

Is buying a winder separately necessary? Can't you just wind up the motor manually?

Do you recommend any specific materials from specific brands? Like glue or things like that.

To launch the plane is there a launcher or something or do you just yeet it manually?

The device must be labelled, but where would there be room enough to label it? Also does the label just include the school and team name or also the team number or other things?

Thanks again!
Annabelle
hey no problem i get email notifications so i'll see these pretty fast
i would pre order the kit and try to get a head start especially with this event because it's so time consuming. if you want to buy the ff kit later on that's a great option too.
a winder imo is very necessary, you'll thank me later. 10:1 or 15:1 winders are most common in this event. you can get them pretty much on any indoor free flight website. you can also buy the ama alpha kit on the ama website for fairly cheap it comes with a 20:1 winder and cool lil plane you can play with.
as for brands i'll list a few
you'll need some sort of spray adhesive - 3m -77 works great
for coverings on the wings and stab you'll need mylar which you usually get in your provided kit or a plastic produce bag from the grocery. they're heavier though more durable, cheaper, and more accessible. if the mass rule for the plane stays heavy this year, it won't be a problem to use a heavier covering.
if you go the custom plane route which i don't recommend for your stance in this category of events, specialized balsa is a great company. sig also provides good balsa sheets for indoor free flight.
for glue i disagree with allen. i like to use duco since it is a soluble glue with acetone, making it easier for adjustments. it's also necessary for things like paper tubes. as for super glue, any cyanoacrylate glue that's medium viscosity is great. bob smith industries makes 1 and 2 oz bottles of insta cure gap filling which is great for any balsa event. don't get anything but the medium viscosity. also don't purchase the un cure cause it doesn't work well. the glue will stick to your hands a lot if you ever get your hand stuck to something (or someone) press down and twist. don't pull... trust me it hurts. usually takes a day to come off fully.
japanese tissue paper for tissue tubes or for the bonus covering.. if that's still a thing this year
propellers from ikara, though they should already be provided in the kit
x acto knives #11 blades from a local crafts store or single/double edge razor blade. you're going to want to get a lot and always work with a sharp blade
basic things like sharp pencils sharpies pens and all that jazz just to have when you're building and testing
i think that's it but i'll let you know fin there's more
also, if you do end up using custom rubber, go to fai sports tan start with size 3/16 1/2 or 1 pound box. you'll also need a rubber striper which is like 200 bucks but it pays off in the end
you don't yeet it per say, you kinda just let it go
for the labeling, the motor stick is where you would put your school name and team number, provided at the competitions you'll go to. i can maybe send a picture of labeled plane parts once i get back from vacation, if i still have it >_>
anyways feel free to keep asking questions these are great and we are all here to help with anything you need

katie
I gotta say that uncure works on pretty much everything excluding hands.

For glue superglue is easier to use, but it's harder to adjust like katie said. I use it because i don't care lol but keep in mind duco is a little harder to use. Most people i know use duco as well but I'm just too lazy

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 15th, 2019, 5:18 am
by klastyioer
Hi Katie,
Thanks so much for responding so quickly and with such thorough advise! I have a couple followup questions.

J and H aerospace appears to have a kit available for pre-order for the 2019-2020 school year. Would you recommend this kit so I can start trimming ASAP or would waiting for the Freedom Flight be better?

Is buying a winder separately necessary? Can't you just wind up the motor manually?

Do you recommend any specific materials from specific brands? Like glue or things like that.

To launch the plane is there a launcher or something or do you just yeet it manually?

The device must be labelled, but where would there be room enough to label it? Also does the label just include the school and team name or also the team number or other things?

Thanks again!
Annabelle
hey no problem i get email notifications so i'll see these pretty fast
i would pre order the kit and try to get a head start especially with this event because it's so time consuming. if you want to buy the ff kit later on that's a great option too.
a winder imo is very necessary, you'll thank me later. 10:1 or 15:1 winders are most common in this event. you can get them pretty much on any indoor free flight website. you can also buy the ama alpha kit on the ama website for fairly cheap it comes with a 20:1 winder and cool lil plane you can play with.
as for brands i'll list a few
you'll need some sort of spray adhesive - 3m -77 works great
for coverings on the wings and stab you'll need mylar which you usually get in your provided kit or a plastic produce bag from the grocery. they're heavier though more durable, cheaper, and more accessible. if the mass rule for the plane stays heavy this year, it won't be a problem to use a heavier covering.
if you go the custom plane route which i don't recommend for your stance in this category of events, specialized balsa is a great company. sig also provides good balsa sheets for indoor free flight.
for glue i disagree with allen. i like to use duco since it is a soluble glue with acetone, making it easier for adjustments. it's also necessary for things like paper tubes. as for super glue, any cyanoacrylate glue that's medium viscosity is great. bob smith industries makes 1 and 2 oz bottles of insta cure gap filling which is great for any balsa event. don't get anything but the medium viscosity. also don't purchase the un cure cause it doesn't work well. the glue will stick to your hands a lot if you ever get your hand stuck to something (or someone) press down and twist. don't pull... trust me it hurts. usually takes a day to come off fully.
japanese tissue paper for tissue tubes or for the bonus covering.. if that's still a thing this year
propellers from ikara, though they should already be provided in the kit
x acto knives #11 blades from a local crafts store or single/double edge razor blade. you're going to want to get a lot and always work with a sharp blade
basic things like sharp pencils sharpies pens and all that jazz just to have when you're building and testing
i think that's it but i'll let you know fin there's more
also, if you do end up using custom rubber, go to fai sports tan start with size 3/16 1/2 or 1 pound box. you'll also need a rubber striper which is like 200 bucks but it pays off in the end
you don't yeet it per say, you kinda just let it go
for the labeling, the motor stick is where you would put your school name and team number, provided at the competitions you'll go to. i can maybe send a picture of labeled plane parts once i get back from vacation, if i still have it >_>
anyways feel free to keep asking questions these are great and we are all here to help with anything you need

katie
I gotta say that uncure works on pretty much everything excluding hands.

For glue superglue is easier to use, but it's harder to adjust like katie said. I use it because i don't care lol but keep in mind duco is a little harder to use. Most people i know use duco as well but I'm just too lazy
wait rly it never worked for anything i did lmao
also you being lazy is a whole assed mood

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 15th, 2019, 9:52 am
by coachchuckaahs
idk who said this but someone mentinoed better schools using kits or something
my stance on that is they should just build their own! theyre too good to be using starters!
This is not correct!

AAHS has always built our own. We have won HS the last two years. Last year, Tower won middle school with what looked like their own design. This year Andrew (Crayola Crayon) came in second with a plan design (Bill Gowen's Finney 2019), not a kit. Prior year West Virginia won MS WS with their own design.

Yes, kits can do well. FF kit has a very good track record (Won 2016 I believe), and J&H kits are getting good. Kits, and their instructions, are a great start when no local coach is available, and can be competitive.

However, top schools over the last three years have all been custom designs or plan-built.

Coach Chuck

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 15th, 2019, 10:06 am
by coachchuckaahs
Commenting on some of the feedback for getting ready early:
  • Get in the gym early and often! That may mean getting a J&H plane to get going early. Note that the final rules have not come out, so you may need to adapt if they change from draft.
  • Winding is critical, and yes, you WILL need a winder. Search this forum for discussions on stretch winding and unwinds. Winding is an art. Do not wind on the plane!
  • Glue: Learn to glue light. Do not glue from the bottle. SO has a link to a tutorial on gluing. Use it. We have built SO planes with CA, but in very controlled application. Do NOT use medium CA. It is too thick, goes on too heavy. One exception may be joining tissue tubes to wing, but even that I question. My kids are building F1D planes this summer (1.4g), and you don't even show the CA bottle to the plane! Duco only, thinned 50%. For SO, if weight stays high, thin CA is fine, but permanent. The ability to move Duco has great advantages!
  • Log: Do NOT think of the log as a contest requirement. The logs are a critical part of your learning. Too many show up with the bare minimum, 10 lines, 6 items. Log every flight. We ended up with over 20 columns in the log. Things like prop (number, pitch, stiffness, diameter), trim (LE and TE heights of wing and stab), CG, winds, unwinds, net winds at launch, max torque, launch torque, first lap altitude, max altitude, circle size, room conditions, time aloft, rubber "width" (expressed as g/in), rubber loop length (before any winding), rubber mass, comments, etc.
  • Read through ALL forum entries for this year. It will take you a few hours, but you will find a lot of key information
  • Read and understand the RULES completely. This is second year for HS, so expect interesting bonuses that may affect your plan, as well as more complex design requirements.
  • Rubber: You can get a variety of widths from FF pre-cut to avoid having to get a rubber stripper. Some years (2019) we have had to start with wide (3/16") rubber, others (2018) have been a much smaller prop and we started with 1/8" or even 3/32" rubber, so as not to waste as much. I would get minimal rubber until the rules are firm, or get a stripper and be prepared to strip a lot away if a small prop is called for. We find a stripper incredibly helpful, but it is a big investment.
Coach Chuck

Re: Wright Stuff C

Posted: August 15th, 2019, 10:19 am
by klastyioer
Commenting on some of the feedback for getting ready early:
  • Get in the gym early and often! That may mean getting a J&H plane to get going early. Note that the final rules have not come out, so you may need to adapt if they change from draft.
  • Winding is critical, and yes, you WILL need a winder. Search this forum for discussions on stretch winding and unwinds. Winding is an art. Do not wind on the plane!
  • Glue: Learn to glue light. Do not glue from the bottle. SO has a link to a tutorial on gluing. Use it. We have built SO planes with CA, but in very controlled application. Do NOT use medium CA. It is too thick, goes on too heavy. One exception may be joining tissue tubes to wing, but even that I question. My kids are building F1D planes this summer (1.4g), and you don't even show the CA bottle to the plane! Duco only, thinned 50%. For SO, if weight stays high, thin CA is fine, but permanent. The ability to move Duco has great advantages!
  • Log: Do NOT think of the log as a contest requirement. The logs are a critical part of your learning. Too many show up with the bare minimum, 10 lines, 6 items. Log every flight. We ended up with over 20 columns in the log. Things like prop (number, pitch, stiffness, diameter), trim (LE and TE heights of wing and stab), CG, winds, unwinds, net winds at launch, max torque, launch torque, first lap altitude, max altitude, circle size, room conditions, time aloft, rubber "width" (expressed as g/in), rubber loop length (before any winding), rubber mass, comments, etc.
  • Read through ALL forum entries for this year. It will take you a few hours, but you will find a lot of key information
  • Read and understand the RULES completely. This is second year for HS, so expect interesting bonuses that may affect your plan, as well as more complex design requirements.
  • Rubber: You can get a variety of widths from FF pre-cut to avoid having to get a rubber stripper. Some years (2019) we have had to start with wide (3/16") rubber, others (2018) have been a much smaller prop and we started with 1/8" or even 3/32" rubber, so as not to waste as much. I would get minimal rubber until the rules are firm, or get a stripper and be prepared to strip a lot away if a small prop is called for. We find a stripper incredibly helpful, but it is a big investment.
Coach Chuck
that's strange my coach said to use medium viscosity since it's harder to use the super thin stuff. he also said the bond is usually stronger. i've used it for the past three years and i've been fine. though it's heavier, it should be fine if you use very very little. i know that many of my friends use medium viscosity and that andrew also used it, but only on very specific parts of the plane.