Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by Unome » September 24th, 2019, 3:46 pm

kinghong1970 wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 1:34 pm
so rule regarding Final Action states:

d.i. After all other planned scorable actions have been attempted, the golf ball from Start Action in 3.b. must be moved at least 20 horizontal cm from it's original resting position and placed on the golf tee...

am i correct in interpreting this rule such that the final action will make the ball move 20cm horizontally but not before the final action is triggered?

thanks in advance.

Al
Essentially, this prevents you from claiming, say, the rolling of the ball immediately after the Start Action as part of that 20 cm.
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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by kinghong1970 » September 24th, 2019, 5:23 pm

Unome wrote:
September 24th, 2019, 3:46 pm
Essentially, this prevents you from claiming, say, the rolling of the ball immediately after the Start Action as part of that 20 cm.
got it...

thanks again!

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by kinghong1970 » September 26th, 2019, 7:36 am

3d.ii states as follows:

3d.ii If the part of the DEVICE that delivered the ball to the tee is then automatically moved away so the ball is clearly unobstructed in all directions, an additional 150 pts will be awarded. The ball must stay on the tee and no part of the DEVICE except the tee and tee holder can be within 10cm of the ball in any direction.

the 10 cm rule stated above, it applies to the delivery device only, not the wall or adjoining walls as well as other devices that are separate of the Final Action Delivery Device?

thank you.

Al

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by knightmoves » September 26th, 2019, 9:08 am

kinghong1970 wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 7:36 am
3d.ii states as follows:

3d.ii If the part of the DEVICE that delivered the ball to the tee is then automatically moved away so the ball is clearly unobstructed in all directions, an additional 150 pts will be awarded. The ball must stay on the tee and no part of the DEVICE except the tee and tee holder can be within 10cm of the ball in any direction.

the 10 cm rule stated above, it applies to the delivery device only, not the wall or adjoining walls as well as other devices that are separate of the Final Action Delivery Device?
The rules quite clearly define "Device" as the whole Mission build. So I think you're wrong - the rule isn't just saying that your delivery device has to retract 10cm - it's saying that there has to be a 10cm + golf-ball-radius sphere centered on the golf ball, containing only the golf ball, tee, and tee holder. That may or may not be the intent, but I'm pretty certain that's what it actually says.

"Tee Holder" isn't defined, except that it has to be 2.5cm or more below the top of the tee. So that means, I think, that you could count the base of the device as part of the "tee holder" but you couldn't count a wall that extends above the tee.

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by kinghong1970 » September 26th, 2019, 9:26 am

knightmoves wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 9:08 am
kinghong1970 wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 7:36 am
3d.ii states as follows:

3d.ii If the part of the DEVICE that delivered the ball to the tee is then automatically moved away so the ball is clearly unobstructed in all directions, an additional 150 pts will be awarded. The ball must stay on the tee and no part of the DEVICE except the tee and tee holder can be within 10cm of the ball in any direction.

the 10 cm rule stated above, it applies to the delivery device only, not the wall or adjoining walls as well as other devices that are separate of the Final Action Delivery Device?
The rules quite clearly define "Device" as the whole Mission build. So I think you're wrong - the rule isn't just saying that your delivery device has to retract 10cm - it's saying that there has to be a 10cm + golf-ball-radius sphere centered on the golf ball, containing only the golf ball, tee, and tee holder. That may or may not be the intent, but I'm pretty certain that's what it actually says.

"Tee Holder" isn't defined, except that it has to be 2.5cm or more below the top of the tee. So that means, I think, that you could count the base of the device as part of the "tee holder" but you couldn't count a wall that extends above the tee.
thanks for your reply... but i still find it a bit confusing in that the first mention of the word "DEVICE" is followed by "that delivered the ball to the tee" whereas the second mention of the word DEVICE can be interpreted as the entire device inclusive of every action and frame...

furthermore, taking your explanation that there must be a 10cm + golf ball radius sphere means that the tee holder that is mounted on the bottom panel will need to be elevated as well as the bottom panel will also be counted as "DEVICE" or other option is to cantilever the tee holder so that it too clears any side walls and bottom walls.

3.a.iii A standard, unmodified wooden or plastic golf tee must be placed into or attached to a "tee holder" somewhere in the DEVICE for final action...

this clearly defines the tee holder separate from the DEVICE as the whole mission build.
Last edited by kinghong1970 on September 26th, 2019, 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by knightmoves » September 26th, 2019, 9:31 am

kinghong1970 wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 9:26 am

thanks for your reply... but i still find it a bit confusing in that the first mention of the word "DEVICE" is followed by "that delivered the ball to the tee" whereas the second mention of the word DEVICE can be interpreted as the entire device inclusive of every action and frame...
"The part of the device that delivers the ball to the tee" must be "automatically moved away".

"Device" is the whole build. The thing that delivers the ball to the tee is "part of the Device".

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by kinghong1970 » September 26th, 2019, 9:40 am

knightmoves wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 9:31 am
kinghong1970 wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 9:26 am

thanks for your reply... but i still find it a bit confusing in that the first mention of the word "DEVICE" is followed by "that delivered the ball to the tee" whereas the second mention of the word DEVICE can be interpreted as the entire device inclusive of every action and frame...
"The part of the device that delivers the ball to the tee" must be "automatically moved away".

"Device" is the whole build. The thing that delivers the ball to the tee is "part of the Device".
thanks again for your reply.

firstly, no intent in getting into verbal squabble with you, just trying to clarify as much as possible. and i do appreciate your replies.

by your statement previously that device mounted onto bottom wall will count the base of the device as part of the tee holder, if the tee holder is mounted on the wall, wouldn't it too be counted as "tee holder" since it is mounted on the wall instead of the base?

all this for 150 points. lol

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by knightmoves » September 26th, 2019, 10:09 am

kinghong1970 wrote:
September 26th, 2019, 9:40 am
firstly, no intent in getting into verbal squabble with you, just trying to clarify as much as possible. and i do appreciate your replies.
This is how we figure out what the language means. We argue about it, and maybe you convince me, and maybe I convince you. Nothing posted in these forums is official, by the way - the only place you can get an official clarification is by submitting a question at https://www.soinc.org/events/frequently-asked-questions - but having said that, the consensus opinion on these forums is usually pretty good.
by your statement previously that device mounted onto bottom wall will count the base of the device as part of the tee holder, if the tee holder is mounted on the wall, wouldn't it too be counted as "tee holder" since it is mounted on the wall instead of the base?

all this for 150 points. lol
The top of the tee holder has to be at least 2.5cm below the top of the tee (3a(iii)). You could use a wall as part of your tee holder, as long as the tee extended 2.5cm above the wall.

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by builder83 » September 27th, 2019, 7:14 am

I too found the 'device' wording here confusing. If device means the entire build as described in the start of the rules, then the tee holder should be somewhere outside the boundary of the device (which I think we all agree is not the intent).

But I think I read this like knight does, as no acting parts (including obviously the delivery mechanism) should be within 10 cm. Nothing should be in the area of the tee but free space, the golf ball, tee, and the holder (at the base of the tee).

Basically I plan on putting my tee in the bottom corner of the device attached to the base with no wall or anything within 10 cm.

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Re: Final Action: Putting the initial dropped ball to the tee

Post by kinghong1970 » September 27th, 2019, 7:37 am

builder83 wrote:
September 27th, 2019, 7:14 am
I too found the 'device' wording here confusing. If device means the entire build as described in the start of the rules, then the tee holder should be somewhere outside the boundary of the device (which I think we all agree is not the intent).

But I think I read this like knight does, as no acting parts (including obviously the delivery mechanism) should be within 10 cm. Nothing should be in the area of the tee but free space, the golf ball, tee, and the holder (at the base of the tee).

Basically I plan on putting my tee in the bottom corner of the device attached to the base with no wall or anything within 10 cm.
therein lies the problem... does the walls/enclosure of the device counts as the device? if so, no matter where you put it, it has to be either raised 10cm or cantilevered 10cm and nothing within the 10cm offset spherical zone around the golf ball...

i did send in a request to clarify on this... i think we can get better understanding if more folks take time to submit request for clarification.

please send inquiry here

https://www.soinc.org/mission-possible

thanks.

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