Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

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nateDC
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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by nateDC » November 22nd, 2019, 11:07 am

Flavorflav wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 5:26 am
torqueburner wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 6:32 am
builder83 wrote:
October 4th, 2019, 6:45 pm
Another next action question.

For example, look at the golf ball task where it is pulled up an incline plane and the ball must start the next action.

The golf ball itself cannot be part of the next action can it? (Like roll off the incline plane and fall into a pully system).

Construction rule 4 says each moveable/adjustable physical object in the Device must be utilized by at most one assigned action (except the golfball in the start/finish task).

This is worded a bit weird. But if I read it right it means the example above would not work. Just making sure I am reading it the same as everybody else.
Yes, you are interpreting this correctly. The golf ball up the incline cannot be used in the pulley task. At the top of the plane, it could push another golf ball into the pulley system.
I don't agree with this. Something is being "utilized" to raise the golf ball, but the golf ball itself is the object of that utilization. I would argue that the golf ball could activate the pulley system without violating 3.a.iv. I have submitted a FAQ on this matter, but it would be good if other people did as well. Sometimes they don't answer a question until a number of people ask it.
My understanding (As a 4 year MP veteran) of this task is that the golf ball is allowed to trigger the pulley action, since the golf ball is what must be used. The golf ball should be allowed to be pushed or pulled up the inclined plane, and then fall off the top of the plane into your pulley system.
I can't think of anything else to put here, so I just wrote this...

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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by builder83 » November 23rd, 2019, 1:34 pm

nateDC wrote:
November 22nd, 2019, 11:07 am
Flavorflav wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 5:26 am
torqueburner wrote:
October 8th, 2019, 6:32 am


Yes, you are interpreting this correctly. The golf ball up the incline cannot be used in the pulley task. At the top of the plane, it could push another golf ball into the pulley system.
I don't agree with this. Something is being "utilized" to raise the golf ball, but the golf ball itself is the object of that utilization. I would argue that the golf ball could activate the pulley system without violating 3.a.iv. I have submitted a FAQ on this matter, but it would be good if other people did as well. Sometimes they don't answer a question until a number of people ask it.
My understanding (As a 4 year MP veteran) of this task is that the golf ball is allowed to trigger the pulley action, since the golf ball is what must be used. The golf ball should be allowed to be pushed or pulled up the inclined plane, and then fall off the top of the plane into your pulley system.
So using the same golfball that is being pulled up incline plane as a counterweight in the pulley action does not violate the rule that each moveable object can only be used in only one action? I guess I do not understand that rule then. Thanks for sharing your input though.

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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by nateDC » November 23rd, 2019, 2:06 pm

builder83 wrote:
November 23rd, 2019, 1:34 pm
nateDC wrote:
November 22nd, 2019, 11:07 am
Flavorflav wrote:
November 20th, 2019, 5:26 am

I don't agree with this. Something is being "utilized" to raise the golf ball, but the golf ball itself is the object of that utilization. I would argue that the golf ball could activate the pulley system without violating 3.a.iv. I have submitted a FAQ on this matter, but it would be good if other people did as well. Sometimes they don't answer a question until a number of people ask it.
My understanding (As a 4 year MP veteran) of this task is that the golf ball is allowed to trigger the pulley action, since the golf ball is what must be used. The golf ball should be allowed to be pushed or pulled up the inclined plane, and then fall off the top of the plane into your pulley system.
So using the same golfball that is being pulled up incline plane as a counterweight in the pulley action does not violate the rule that each moveable object can only be used in only one action? I guess I do not understand that rule then. Thanks for sharing your input though.
The golf ball is what needs to trigger the next action. If that means triggering the pulley system directly, that’s ok.
I can't think of anything else to put here, so I just wrote this...

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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by marty3 » November 23rd, 2019, 3:15 pm

builder83 wrote:
November 23rd, 2019, 1:34 pm
So using the same golfball that is being pulled up incline plane as a counterweight in the pulley action does not violate the rule that each moveable object can only be used in only one action? I guess I do not understand that rule then. Thanks for sharing your input though.

When rules seem open to interpretation, my advice is just to play it safe. You should design your device so that every Event Supervisor will allow it.

I won't allow this myself, simply because the golf ball is a movable object that is necessary to earn points for both actions. For the inclined plane, the golf ball must both be raised and start the next action. Using the golf ball as a counterweight for the pulley action makes the golf ball necessary to do the action, not just start it.

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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by Flavorflav » November 24th, 2019, 6:56 am

Absent a FAQ to the contrary I will allow it at our regional. It seems to me that your interpretation could actually make it impossible to obey this rule, since technically you are introducing a nonscorable "golf ball knocks over weight" task in between the ramp and the pulley, which would mean you are still using the golf ball twice. I think a FAQ is in order.

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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by AwesomeSauceis1 » November 24th, 2019, 8:35 am

marty3 wrote:
November 23rd, 2019, 3:15 pm
builder83 wrote:
November 23rd, 2019, 1:34 pm
So using the same golfball that is being pulled up incline plane as a counterweight in the pulley action does not violate the rule that each moveable object can only be used in only one action? I guess I do not understand that rule then. Thanks for sharing your input though.
When rules seem open to interpretation, my advice is just to play it safe. You should design your device so that every Event Supervisor will allow it.

I won't allow this myself, simply because the golf ball is a movable object that is necessary to earn points for both actions. For the inclined plane, the golf ball must both be raised and start the next action. Using the golf ball as a counterweight for the pulley action makes the golf ball necessary to do the action, not just start it.
Flavorflav wrote: Absent a FAQ to the contrary I will allow it at our regional. It seems to me that your interpretation could actually make it impossible to obey this rule, since technically you are introducing a nonscorable "golf ball knocks over weight" task in between the ramp and the pulley, which would mean you are still using the golf ball twice. I think a FAQ is in order.
The rules state that after every action, you have to state how it triggers the next one. So I would think that you could word the ASL so at the end of the inclined plane task, "Golf ball knocks over weight." Then your subsequent, non-scorable action would read, "Weight falls into pulley system." Following that logic, you could also use the golf ball as a counterweight by saying, "Golf balls falls into pulley system."
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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by marty3 » November 24th, 2019, 5:55 pm

Flavorflav wrote:
November 24th, 2019, 6:56 am
Absent a FAQ to the contrary I will allow it at our regional. It seems to me that your interpretation could actually make it impossible to obey this rule, since technically you are introducing a nonscorable "golf ball knocks over weight" task in between the ramp and the pulley, which would mean you are still using the golf ball twice. I think a FAQ is in order.
That's fine to follow your own interpretation. That's up to each Event Supervisor. I still encourage competitors to play it safe when designing their device and writing their ASL

I'd recommend reading the example ASL on soinc.org. It's probably best I not share my own examples publicly, but I believe this inclined plane/pulley sequence can be done. Some notable examples in the example ASL are "hit a domino" and "release of sand".

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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by Flavorflav » November 25th, 2019, 7:20 am

I agree that most of the tasks on the sample ASL would meet your criterion, but look closely at tasks one and two: In task one, the golf ball hits the wedge. In task two, the wedge separates two golf balls. Wouldn't your interpretation make that illegal? The wedge is a movable object that is necessary to earn points for both actions.

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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by builder83 » November 25th, 2019, 12:04 pm

Flavorflav wrote:
November 25th, 2019, 7:20 am
I agree that most of the tasks on the sample ASL would meet your criterion, but look closely at tasks one and two: In task one, the golf ball hits the wedge. In task two, the wedge separates two golf balls. Wouldn't your interpretation make that illegal? The wedge is a movable object that is necessary to earn points for both actions.
Seems to me that the golf ball hitting the wedge is the initiating act. That initial ball does not continue to be a part of the next action. (Where the above example with the incline plane and pulley system that golf ball would continue to be used throughout the next action as a counterweight.)

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Re: Clarifying "Initiates the next action..."

Post by marty3 » November 25th, 2019, 1:39 pm

builder83 wrote:
November 25th, 2019, 12:04 pm
Seems to me that the golf ball hitting the wedge is the initiating act. That initial ball does not continue to be a part of the next action. (Where the above example with the incline plane and pulley system that golf ball would continue to be used throughout the next action as a counterweight.)

That's exactly how I read it.

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