No show at nationals?

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EastStroudsburg13
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » July 3rd, 2019, 5:12 am

builderguy135 wrote:
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
builderguy135 wrote:
I think this is actually a pretty good idea, minus freezing the state on the second year. It just seems kinda harsh for everyone else in the state (second or 3rd place teams).
That's part of the idea. If it happens one year, and the state takes no precautions to make any changes in a subsequent year, there should be a stiffer punishment.
How would the state take precautions to make sure a team attends? Would they have the right to elect a different team or give out stricter punishments to those who no show?
Probably some form of stricter national attendance confirmation process. States also have the right to give out whatever punishments they want to, as they operate pretty independently of NSO (too much so, imo, but that's a debate for another time).
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by Rossyspsce » July 3rd, 2019, 4:05 pm

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
builderguy135 wrote:
EastStroudsburg13 wrote: That's part of the idea. If it happens one year, and the state takes no precautions to make any changes in a subsequent year, there should be a stiffer punishment.
How would the state take precautions to make sure a team attends? Would they have the right to elect a different team or give out stricter punishments to those who no show?
Probably some form of stricter national attendance confirmation process. States also have the right to give out whatever punishments they want to, as they operate pretty independently of NSO (too much so, imo, but that's a debate for another time).
why not punish the team that no-showed instead of their state? for example: apply a one year ban from competing at nats

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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » July 3rd, 2019, 4:29 pm

Rossyspsce wrote:why not punish the team that no-showed instead of their state? for example: apply a one year ban from competing at nats
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:Maybe a state one-year freeze could occur for the second offense, while the first offense could just cause a freeze for the specific school.
;)
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by Froggie » July 4th, 2019, 9:52 am

Punishing the entire state doesn't seem very fair for the other teams in the state.
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by TheCrazyChemist » July 4th, 2019, 11:07 am

Froggie wrote:Punishing the entire state doesn't seem very fair for the other teams in the state.
I think EastStroudsburg13 is saying that that is the punishment for the second time it happens to a state. If it happens a first time, the team will be punished by NSO, and the state should take precautions to make sure it doesn't happen again. If the state doesn't take those precautions and it happens again, the whole entire state gets frozen because it's also the state's fault for not taking precautions. Nat competition spots are very precious to NSO and a lot of people in SciOly, so all the people who have posted about this are trying to make penalties severe enough that teams don't throw away their nats spot without telling anybody else.

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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by Froggie » July 4th, 2019, 11:58 am

TheCrazyChemist wrote:
Froggie wrote:Punishing the entire state doesn't seem very fair for the other teams in the state.
I think EastStroudsburg13 is saying that that is the punishment for the second time it happens to a state. If it happens a first time, the team will be punished by NSO, and the state should take precautions to make sure it doesn't happen again. If the state doesn't take those precautions and it happens again, the whole entire state gets frozen because it's also the state's fault for not taking precautions. Nat competition spots are very precious to NSO and a lot of people in SciOly, so all the people who have posted about this are trying to make penalties severe enough that teams don't throw away their nats spot without telling anybody else.
But it's not the other teams' fault that the state didn't take precautions.
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » July 4th, 2019, 12:26 pm

Froggie wrote:
TheCrazyChemist wrote:
Froggie wrote:Punishing the entire state doesn't seem very fair for the other teams in the state.
I think EastStroudsburg13 is saying that that is the punishment for the second time it happens to a state. If it happens a first time, the team will be punished by NSO, and the state should take precautions to make sure it doesn't happen again. If the state doesn't take those precautions and it happens again, the whole entire state gets frozen because it's also the state's fault for not taking precautions. Nat competition spots are very precious to NSO and a lot of people in SciOly, so all the people who have posted about this are trying to make penalties severe enough that teams don't throw away their nats spot without telling anybody else.
But it's not the other teams' fault that the state didn't take precautions.
Having collateral damage is sometimes an important of part of actually having an effective punishment. I agree it's not ideal, but if it helps states be more proactive in ensuring that teams can make it to nationals, or that they're letting the state know if they can't, then it's a net positive for me.
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by primitivepolonium » July 8th, 2019, 12:23 pm

EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
Froggie wrote:
TheCrazyChemist wrote: I think EastStroudsburg13 is saying that that is the punishment for the second time it happens to a state. If it happens a first time, the team will be punished by NSO, and the state should take precautions to make sure it doesn't happen again. If the state doesn't take those precautions and it happens again, the whole entire state gets frozen because it's also the state's fault for not taking precautions. Nat competition spots are very precious to NSO and a lot of people in SciOly, so all the people who have posted about this are trying to make penalties severe enough that teams don't throw away their nats spot without telling anybody else.
But it's not the other teams' fault that the state didn't take precautions.
Having collateral damage is sometimes an important of part of actually having an effective punishment. I agree it's not ideal, but if it helps states be more proactive in ensuring that teams can make it to nationals, or that they're letting the state know if they can't, then it's a net positive for me.
It does sound super unfair theoretically, but it's not like state-bans would be handed out willy-nilly to innocent teams/states. They'd only be used in these rare cases where a state is serially no-showing without notice.

For real-life context: this year, only 1 team out of 120 no-showed without prior notice of an emergency. That's less than 1% of teams. (Again, this is assuming Germantown didn't have extenuating circumstances that kept them from contacting Nats until after the tournament.) There were no no-shows, period, from 2014-2018. I haven't looked further back, but given the way people are talking this year, I'm assuming no-shows are extremely rare.

Also, if a state is at a point where its top 2 teams don't care enough about Nationals to either 1) go, or 2) communicate with the Nationals Committee about emergencies and whatnot, then there is a real problem. I'd also argue--and perhaps this is the elitist and salty Californian in me speaking--that if the top 2 teams in your state don't care about Nats and yet still managed to become the top teams in your state, then perhaps none of the teams in your state care enough about SciOly to be actually indignant at a state ban.
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by drcubbin » July 9th, 2019, 8:01 am

primitive_polonium wrote:
EastStroudsburg13 wrote:
Froggie wrote: But it's not the other teams' fault that the state didn't take precautions.
Having collateral damage is sometimes an important of part of actually having an effective punishment. I agree it's not ideal, but if it helps states be more proactive in ensuring that teams can make it to nationals, or that they're letting the state know if they can't, then it's a net positive for me.
It does sound super unfair theoretically, but it's not like state-bans would be handed out willy-nilly to innocent teams/states. They'd only be used in these rare cases where a state is serially no-showing without notice.

For real-life context: this year, only 1 team out of 120 no-showed without prior notice of an emergency. That's less than 1% of teams. (Again, this is assuming Germantown didn't have extenuating circumstances that kept them from contacting Nats until after the tournament.) There were no no-shows, period, from 2014-2018. I haven't looked further back, but given the way people are talking this year, I'm assuming no-shows are extremely rare.

Also, if a state is at a point where its top 2 teams don't care enough about Nationals to either 1) go, or 2) communicate with the Nationals Committee about emergencies and whatnot, then there is a real problem. I'd also argue--and perhaps this is the elitist and salty Californian in me speaking--that if the top 2 teams in your state don't care about Nats and yet still managed to become the top teams in your state, then perhaps none of the teams in your state care enough about SciOly to be actually indignant at a state ban.
Yes, a statewide ban is a bit "salty". Instead, give the next runner-up for that state first dibs to compete. If they can not make it, then giving second dibs to the next in line from hosting state (logistically easier) would seem to be a more equitable and a logical remedy. Additionally, I am reluctant to support a "state-ban" for the following year as you would be penalizing the students who have worked so hard to get there. I have to believe that this is something completely out of their control. Undoubtedly, the failure to show up is already a crushing blow to every student and by disallowing them the opportunity to participate the next year does seem a bit... well, punitive.

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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » July 9th, 2019, 10:46 am

drcubbin wrote:
primitive_polonium wrote:
EastStroudsburg13 wrote: Having collateral damage is sometimes an important of part of actually having an effective punishment. I agree it's not ideal, but if it helps states be more proactive in ensuring that teams can make it to nationals, or that they're letting the state know if they can't, then it's a net positive for me.
It does sound super unfair theoretically, but it's not like state-bans would be handed out willy-nilly to innocent teams/states. They'd only be used in these rare cases where a state is serially no-showing without notice.

For real-life context: this year, only 1 team out of 120 no-showed without prior notice of an emergency. That's less than 1% of teams. (Again, this is assuming Germantown didn't have extenuating circumstances that kept them from contacting Nats until after the tournament.) There were no no-shows, period, from 2014-2018. I haven't looked further back, but given the way people are talking this year, I'm assuming no-shows are extremely rare.

Also, if a state is at a point where its top 2 teams don't care enough about Nationals to either 1) go, or 2) communicate with the Nationals Committee about emergencies and whatnot, then there is a real problem. I'd also argue--and perhaps this is the elitist and salty Californian in me speaking--that if the top 2 teams in your state don't care about Nats and yet still managed to become the top teams in your state, then perhaps none of the teams in your state care enough about SciOly to be actually indignant at a state ban.
Yes, a statewide ban is a bit "salty". Instead, give the next runner-up for that state first dibs to compete. If they can not make it, then giving second dibs to the next in line from hosting state (logistically easier) would seem to be a more equitable and a logical remedy. Additionally, I am reluctant to support a "state-ban" for the following year as you would be penalizing the students who have worked so hard to get there. I have to believe that this is something completely out of their control. Undoubtedly, the failure to show up is already a crushing blow to every student and by disallowing them the opportunity to participate the next year does seem a bit... well, punitive.
drcubbin, what you're describing seems to be what the current process already is. If a team cannot attend nationals in a given year, the bid goes to the second-place team. This happens relatively frequently. If no team from the state accepts the bid, then the bid goes to the state next in line for a second bid. This is also not unheard of.

These are not the cases we are referring to. We are only talking about cases where a team is assumed to be going to nationals, and then does not show at nationals, for no given reason. This, in theory, would be a very rare occurrence, and if this happened, the only punishment would be on that team.

A state-wide ban would only occur if such a circumstance happened for a second year. It wouldn't apply if they inform NSO ahead of time, allowing them to invite another team from another state, and it wouldn't apply if the second-place team attends nationals. It would only occur in what appears to be an ultra-ultra-ultra rare circumstance.
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