No show at nationals?

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sciolyperson1
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by sciolyperson1 » July 9th, 2019, 3:49 pm

drcubbin wrote:
primitive_polonium wrote:
EastStroudsburg13 wrote: Having collateral damage is sometimes an important of part of actually having an effective punishment. I agree it's not ideal, but if it helps states be more proactive in ensuring that teams can make it to nationals, or that they're letting the state know if they can't, then it's a net positive for me.
It does sound super unfair theoretically, but it's not like state-bans would be handed out willy-nilly to innocent teams/states. They'd only be used in these rare cases where a state is serially no-showing without notice.

For real-life context: this year, only 1 team out of 120 no-showed without prior notice of an emergency. That's less than 1% of teams. (Again, this is assuming Germantown didn't have extenuating circumstances that kept them from contacting Nats until after the tournament.) There were no no-shows, period, from 2014-2018. I haven't looked further back, but given the way people are talking this year, I'm assuming no-shows are extremely rare.

Also, if a state is at a point where its top 2 teams don't care enough about Nationals to either 1) go, or 2) communicate with the Nationals Committee about emergencies and whatnot, then there is a real problem. I'd also argue--and perhaps this is the elitist and salty Californian in me speaking--that if the top 2 teams in your state don't care about Nats and yet still managed to become the top teams in your state, then perhaps none of the teams in your state care enough about SciOly to be actually indignant at a state ban.
Yes, a statewide ban is a bit "salty". Instead, give the next runner-up for that state first dibs to compete. If they can not make it, then giving second dibs to the next in line from hosting state (logistically easier) would seem to be a more equitable and a logical remedy. Additionally, I am reluctant to support a "state-ban" for the following year as you would be penalizing the students who have worked so hard to get there. I have to believe that this is something completely out of their control. Undoubtedly, the failure to show up is already a crushing blow to every student and by disallowing them the opportunity to participate the next year does seem a bit... well, punitive.
How would this be salty? All it does is ensure teams don't ditch for no reason - and this only applies for the 2nd year, not the 1st. Furthermore, if the team who gets first, in the whole state, for two years in a row no shows nats, also for two years in a row, then I really, really doubt that the students who "worked so hard to get there" actually worked that hard at all.
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by Name » July 9th, 2019, 4:25 pm

sciolyperson1 wrote:
How would this be salty? All it does is ensure teams don't ditch for no reason - and this only applies for the 2nd year, not the 1st. Furthermore, if the team who gets first, in the whole state, for two years in a row no shows nats, also for two years in a row, then I really, really doubt that the students who "worked so hard to get there" actually worked that hard at all.
Let's say a team decided to no show nats twice and a state ban in enforced. Then next year another team works hard, and manages to reach nats. But now due to something completely out of their control they now cannot attend nats, even though they rightfully earned a Nationals spot.

I don't think you should question the work ethic of students on a team who no showed nats purely based on the fact they no showed. The students may have dedicated significant time and effort in reaching where they are, and I'd say almost always, they have no say in whether their team is coming or not. Often the decision not to come is made by a coach or someone else, and is not a decision by the students.

That being said I am for measures to prevent no showing at nats, I'm just saying why a state ban could be unfair to some people.
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by EastStroudsburg13 » July 9th, 2019, 8:00 pm

Name wrote:
sciolyperson1 wrote:
How would this be salty? All it does is ensure teams don't ditch for no reason - and this only applies for the 2nd year, not the 1st. Furthermore, if the team who gets first, in the whole state, for two years in a row no shows nats, also for two years in a row, then I really, really doubt that the students who "worked so hard to get there" actually worked that hard at all.
Let's say a team decided to no show nats twice and a state ban in enforced. Then next year another team works hard, and manages to reach nats. But now due to something completely out of their control they now cannot attend nats, even though they rightfully earned a Nationals spot.

I don't think you should question the work ethic of students on a team who no showed nats purely based on the fact they no showed. The students may have dedicated significant time and effort in reaching where they are, and I'd say almost always, they have no say in whether their team is coming or not. Often the decision not to come is made by a coach or someone else, and is not a decision by the students.

That being said I am for measures to prevent no showing at nats, I'm just saying why a state ban could be unfair to some people.
Again, that's part of the idea. The point is to make it as distasteful of a punishment for the state as possible, so that things never get that bad.

Maybe it'd be worth it to have two pathways. One, a team pathway, where if a team no-shows without warning or explanation one year, they are banned the next year. Then, for the second time they no-show without warning (at any point in the future), they are banned for two years, and then it increases by one each time they no-show again. Second, a state pathway, where if a team no-shows without warning one year, and then a different team no-shows without warning the following year, teams from that state are banned from nationals the third year. This second pathway would only apply if no-shows occurred in consecutive years.

In all likelihood, none of these are likely to happen. It's even possible Germantown had a reason to no-show that we're not aware of, or that NSO already has contingencies in place.
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Re: No show at nationals?

Post by sciolyperson1 » July 9th, 2019, 8:49 pm

Name wrote:
sciolyperson1 wrote:
How would this be salty? All it does is ensure teams don't ditch for no reason - and this only applies for the 2nd year, not the 1st. Furthermore, if the team who gets first, in the whole state, for two years in a row no shows nats, also for two years in a row, then I really, really doubt that the students who "worked so hard to get there" actually worked that hard at all.
Let's say a team decided to no show nats twice and a state ban in enforced. Then next year another team works hard, and manages to reach nats. But now due to something completely out of their control they now cannot attend nats, even though they rightfully earned a Nationals spot.

I don't think you should question the work ethic of students on a team who no showed nats purely based on the fact they no showed. The students may have dedicated significant time and effort in reaching where they are, and I'd say almost always, they have no say in whether their team is coming or not. Often the decision not to come is made by a coach or someone else, and is not a decision by the students.

That being said I am for measures to prevent no showing at nats, I'm just saying why a state ban could be unfair to some people.
Yep, I should've mentioned that it would only count if a team doesn't tell NSO. For instance, the Div C team which NSed this year told NSO ahead of time, leading to a confirmed status on what the team would do at comp. Obviously, if one were not to acknowledge that they wouldn't go, then they would be at fault.
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MIT: LMMM - 1st '21, DigiStruc - 2nd '21, Gravity - 1st '20
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