9th Graders in Division B

[Name]

I would say it's a bit more then just a slight advantage, but I do agree taking first across the board is complete false. IMO any, even slight advantages should be eliminated as much as possible from scioly where in some cases a few points could make the difference between where you place. Obviously DWJHS shows succeeding at the highest levels is possible without ninth graders, but 8-9/10 top ten teams nationally use 9th graders while I seriously doubt 80-90+% of teams use 9th graders, which means having 9th graders does give a pretty big advantage.

Coming from a middle school who refused to take back 9th graders (coach's decision even though we asked for it), I think we would have benefitted not just from having kids in HS classes but just to have a few very successful members rejoin us for another season. Also people who have taken HS classes as 7th/8th graders tended to do the best overall compared to those who didn't although that could just be because they cared more and therefore they went ahead rather then they went ahead and did better because they went ahead. I'm not saying that we would suddenly become extraordinarily good (that would require much more drastic changes), just that we probably would have placed at least a few places higher at states and won regionals if we brought back a couple of members.

In terms of "curve of achievement spike" or whatever I personally felt like I did better in 9th grade in div C even with harder compitition then I ever did in B (although that could be because of a completely new div C scioly system which is drastically different from our B system)

Our other middle school did take back a few 9th graders once a couple of years ago and it just so happened it was the same year they made states for the first and only time they made states. The states results also correlated with medals they did earn being earned by 9th graders. This doesn't really apply for Nationals level teams or whatever, but for smaller teams if you can bring back 9th graders, that's huge.

[drcubbin]

Thank you Name for getting the point. And yes, "taking first across the board" is a bit hyperbolic, but there are schools in competitions who do just that. Hyperbolic yes, but it is possible to get pretty darn close. This discussion was started by a Div B coach and I am only trying to hear different opinions, like yours out there, not get into a back and forth over repeating the same thing. As you said, "if you can bring back 9th graders, that's huge". Now where are the other coaches on this?

And yes builderguy, it would be great to get them back, but we live in NY City, not the suburbs. That makes a big difference. Our middle and high schools are most often in different boroughs and it may take a student up to 2 hours on subways and buses to get back to us in the afternoon - each day. It is not the suburbs where many school are across the street from each other. Just a fact of urban life. Another fact is that, unlike the suburbs, our students do not always live close to each other. Many bus in from far away. It is different. No complaints, just different. So all things considered, #1 in NYC, we're doing pretty well. It's States we are working on!

P.S. Name - I graduated from St. Doms many many years ago and so I'm looking forward to Syosset hosting LISO this year!

[Unome]

Thank you Name for getting the point. And yes, "taking first across the board" is a bit hyperbolic, but there are schools in competitions who do just that. Hyperbolic yes, but it is possible to get pretty darn close. This discussion was started by a Div B coach and I am only trying to hear different opinions, like yours out there, not get into a back and forth over repeating the same thing. As you said, "if you can bring back 9th graders, that's huge". Now where are the other coaches on this?

And yes builderguy, it would be great to get them back, but we live in NY City, not the suburbs. That makes a big difference. Our middle and high schools are most often in different boroughs and it may take a student up to 2 hours on subways and buses to get back to us in the afternoon - each day. It is not the suburbs where many school are across the street from each other. Just a fact of urban life. Another fact is that, unlike the suburbs, our students do not always live close to each other. Many bus in from far away. It is different. No complaints, just different. So all things considered, #1 in NYC, we're doing pretty well. It's States we are working on!

P.S. Name - I graduated from St. Doms many many years ago and so I'm looking forward to Syosset hosting LISO this year!

Having competed as a 9th grader at a middle school which draws students from dozens of miles away, I can confirm that there is no particular need to actually come to the school regularly to succeed. I rarely went to the school for practices, primarily just studying on my own and coming to competitions.

[l0lit]

I believe the 9th graders' main advantage comes from simply being older and doing more SciOly. There is clearly a difference between my skill in SciOly now when contrasted with something even as close as 1 year ago. I do not know how the curriculum is wherever you all are from, but I highly doubt my freshman year science would help me much besides maybe Heredity and Machines (this was reflected in my placements that year as well, oops). Main point: the fact remains that the wide majority of being good at SciOly comes from outside studying.

Given that point, the main disadvantage of having a 9th grader is a lack of time. While some people might see an increase of studying capabilities, I also see a large decrease in time available for studying, whether due to additional homework or other commitments. In this case, an 8th grader utilizing their increased time effectively (or at least a lot more effectively than I did) would be arguably better than a 9th grader. This is especially emphasized when 9th graders would have to travel extra to practice for SciOly, so they would (as Unome said) have to practice at home.

Overall, 9th graders are probably a good resource in keeping the talent developed over the first 3 years of SciOly (as demonstrated by most of the top 10 teams), but are clearly not a game-changing advantage (as demonstrated by a lot of other teams, such as Daniel Wright). Definitely, focusing on training your 6-8th graders to develop better study habits and make use of all the time they have before going to high school is probably the best move. It is hard, but I think getting that student-driven motivation in middle school itself would make a solid powerhouse team.

[Umaroth]

I do think that ninth graders are definitely an advantage when used correctly, but they're just like any other competitor, but older and more preoccupied with school stuff. The main purpose for ninth graders in my eyes is leadership. The other ninth grader and I that competed for Kraemer were actually two of the least experienced ninth graders that could have come back. He competed for one full season, and I only competed in trial events at three competitions from January to April.

At Kraemer, what we stress in all of our competitors is development of character and leadership skills, because we are not just a team, but a program. Kraemer is now essentially a completely student run program, with the head coach mainly just filling out paperwork and handling district bureaucracy. Most of the time, kids come into the program as seventh graders having never been on a competition team before, but throughout the course of the year, they learn the ropes and develop things like better work ethic and teamwork. As eighth graders, we give them more of an opportunity to take charge as event leaders and sort of junior captains. The eighth graders that choose to return as ninth graders are essentially the leadership backbone of the team. We don't necessarily take back the strongest ninth graders, but we take those who have shown that they understand the process and have developed strong leadership and management skills during their eighth grade year. In all honesty, the main motivation to come back to compete as a ninth grader is Troy, whether it is being uncertain that one will make the Troy team or wanting one more chance to lead the team to nationals, which would be very difficult in Division C. Our coach has always told us that in say 10 years, nobody will care that you knew how to identify some type of lizard, flew a model plane for 35 seconds, or got a car to roll between some cans 15 cm apart, but they will care that you know how to find resources, collaborate with others, and lead by example.

This is just how Kraemer operates, and it's been successful for us, but that's not to say that ninth graders are necessary for a successful program. Daniel Wright and Jeffrey Trail, two top 10 teams at nats, don't use ninth graders for their various reasons, and they are powerful teams. High school classes are not too big of an advantage for ninth graders here, because we regularly have eighth graders that are taking honors biology or algebra II/trig honors. Our eighth graders are probably capable of the ninth graders' job, but really, we take ninth graders back for their own benefit, not the team's. Our main goal is to prepare our students for their future.

Edit: forgot to finish a sentence lol

[IsabellaC92343]

I don't think my brother implied that... he's saying that 8th graders can be just as good as everyone else, including freshmen. He's trying to show examples where 8th graders performed extremely well at the national level to support his point that 9th graders aren't needed to make a good team. 9th graders aren't necessarily better than everyone else, but they are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better.

It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers - that's just what one extra year does to people. However, examples like Daniel Wright show that 9th graders are not obligatory to get a team to nationals or even win nationals... twice.

Most teams with a few exceptions would benefit from freshmen. However, the benefit is much smaller than you probably think.

When you say, "(9th graders) are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better" or "It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers" you are proving my point. We are thrilled by our ascent and will continue to move up, but having five of our 9th graders who are now headed to Brooklyn Tech or Stuy on the team would certainly create a different playing field. Imagine if a HS team competed against another HS team with five college freshmen... majoring in physics and chem? I love our team - every year - but I'm just doing the math.

The last thing I said in my reply was that "the benefit is much smaller than you probably think." Also, what lumo said: it's not a make or break situation.

If you want an "even playing field", get your 9th graders back to help! I'm sure that they're busy, but every freshmen on div B teams are too. Regarding distance issues, why can't partners just meet outside of school?

I am not disagreeing with your statement at all but on the last section of your reply I would like to clarify what Dr.C meant by distant issues.

It is not just that the 9th graders are busy, because every 9th grader is busy. But unfourtunatly Bay Academy is not right next to or in walking distant of the high school that the 9th graders are attending. Where as some schools have their high schools a 10 minute or less walk to their middle schools. For me it is a 1 hour drive without traffic and an 1.5 hour train ride, which is excluding having to wait for the train. (note that it takes me 3 trains to get from my high school to Bay, meaning i have to get off 3 trains and wait for 3 trains). And I have it good. Some of the school lets take Bronx Science is a 2 hour drive and a 2.5 hour train ride from Bay Academy.

Now I'm not saying that I disagree or agree with anything being said or that something should be changed, because no one can really do anything about transit issues. But I am just trying to make everyone who is disagreeing more aware of what we mean when we are talking about our transit issues

[AlfWeg]

Also people who have taken HS classes as 7th/8th graders tended to do the best overall compared to those who didn't although that could just be because they cared more and therefore they went ahead rather then they went ahead and did better because they went ahead.
.

Me and a bunch of other kids from my school were in highschool classes as 8th graders, and doing advanced classes in HS didn't really benefit Scioly....It was just part of the scioly mindset to be an advanced student

Given that point, the main disadvantage of having a 9th grader is a lack of time......Overall, 9th graders are probably a good resource in keeping the talent developed over the first 3 years of SciOly

I'm not sure where this is coming from.... 9th grade year might be a bit more work, but is in no way a significant problem. And yes, no matter how we put it, 9th graders are an advantage. Literally on straight up experience(Only applies if 9th grader was in scioly from 6th grade). (Ex. Meteorology used to cycle every year through 3 topics(Maybe it still does?).....so if a 6th grader did Meteorology all throughout Middle School...)

...Our main goal is to prepare our students for their future

Honestly, this was straight up heart-warming, and it's impressive that you guys are student run at the middle school level.

[builderguy135]

When you say, "(9th graders) are a great resource to use if a team chooses to in order to make their team even better" or "It is obvious that overall, 9th graders on average are objectively better at scioly than middle schoolers" you are proving my point. We are thrilled by our ascent and will continue to move up, but having five of our 9th graders who are now headed to Brooklyn Tech or Stuy on the team would certainly create a different playing field. Imagine if a HS team competed against another HS team with five college freshmen... majoring in physics and chem? I love our team - every year - but I'm just doing the math.

The last thing I said in my reply was that "the benefit is much smaller than you probably think." Also, what lumo said: it's not a make or break situation.

If you want an "even playing field", get your 9th graders back to help! I'm sure that they're busy, but every freshmen on div B teams are too. Regarding distance issues, why can't partners just meet outside of school?

I am not disagreeing with your statement at all but on the last section of your reply I would like to clarify what Dr.C meant by distant issues.

It is not just that the 9th graders are busy, because every 9th grader is busy. But unfourtunatly Bay Academy is not right next to or in walking distant of the high school that the 9th graders are attending. Where as some schools have their high schools a 10 minute or less walk to their middle schools. For me it is a 1 hour drive without traffic and an 1.5 hour train ride, which is excluding having to wait for the train. (note that it takes me 3 trains to get from my high school to Bay, meaning i have to get off 3 trains and wait for 3 trains). And I have it good. Some of the school lets take Bronx Science is a 2 hour drive and a 2.5 hour train ride from Bay Academy.

Now I'm not saying that I disagree or agree with anything being said or that something should be changed, because no one can really do anything about transit issues. But I am just trying to make everyone who is disagreeing more aware of what we mean when we are talking about our transit issues

Alright, maybe I'm wrong about the transportation part. To be fair, I've never lived in a city before.

However, I have to agree with Unome. You don't always have to meet up as a team to succeed. You could study alone, video call, go to a partner's house, etc. and still do well at competitions. Spending more time outside of school meetings are extremely beneficial and even necessary to improve a team.

[TheCrazyChemist]

Thank you Name for getting the point. And yes, "taking first across the board" is a bit hyperbolic, but there are schools in competitions who do just that. Hyperbolic yes, but it is possible to get pretty darn close. This discussion was started by a Div B coach and I am only trying to hear different opinions, like yours out there, not get into a back and forth over repeating the same thing. As you said, "if you can bring back 9th graders, that's huge". Now where are the other coaches on this?

And yes builderguy, it would be great to get them back, but we live in NY City, not the suburbs. That makes a big difference. Our middle and high schools are most often in different boroughs and it may take a student up to 2 hours on subways and buses to get back to us in the afternoon - each day. It is not the suburbs where many school are across the street from each other. Just a fact of urban life. Another fact is that, unlike the suburbs, our students do not always live close to each other. Many bus in from far away. It is different. No complaints, just different. So all things considered, #1 in NYC, we're doing pretty well. It's States we are working on!

I think that 9th graders affect different teams differently. Especially in different school districts where school commitments and extracurricular commitments vary. I can only speak for Bedford, but when everybody on the team is really dedicated, grade doesn't necessarily make a difference. In fact, our 2018 team had 3 9th graders competing at the state competition, all of who did really well. But due to unfortunate circumstances, only one of them could make it to nationals. We still did well at nationals that year, and the people who came onto the team still performed really well because they had studied a lot as well and were super committed. If those 9th graders had came, maybe we would've gotten 23rd or something instead of 25th, but in the grand scheme of things, those 2 places don't really matter that much ( imo, feel free to rip that apart).
And people don't necessarily need to meet in person to be productive and work together. They can FaceTime, use some conference tool like WebEx or Zoom, or jut meet somewhere on the weekends. If 9th graders cant even do that, are they really even committed to Science Olympiad and would they even come to in person sessions seriously?

[The48thYoshi]

I thought it would only be fitting to chime into this discussion as an alum of Daniel Wright as everyone seems to be used our team as an example.

While it is true that ninth graders generally have better placements than a sixth, seventh, or eighth grader, that can easily be overcome. At the 2017 Nationals Tournament, I was in seventh grade, and I was competing against several freshmen in my events. Still, through the preparation my partners and I put in beforehand, we were able to have consistent and good placings. For the logistics of that year’s champion team, it consisted of 7 seventh graders and 8 eighth graders, roughly a 50/50 split. I think this clearly shows that even seventh graders, with enough practice and effort can be just as and perhaps more successful than ninth graders at the highest levels of div B. Yes, we may have been able to do better with ninth graders on our team, and yes, maybe we could have lower our score by five, ten, or even maybe fifteen points. At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter, because with the right mentality, any set of kids can do extremely well, and in our case, win at nationals.

Additionally, I would like to address the point made about travel difficulties. For Daniel Wright, we rarely had “team meetings” with the entire team at school, and we all attended the same school every day. Rather, we relied on organized meetings by partners, or events, or even multiple events, where the people participating in those events would meet up with each other and work though tests or cover some research ideas. I don’t think it should be an issue for the ninth graders in NYC, as drcubbin was mentioning, to meet outside of school with their partners or simply collaborate over the internet.

At the end of the day, ninth graders are helpful more for leadership than for event placings. Obviously, ninth graders are the more experienced members of the team and may do better than other team members in their own placements, but individual placements don’t determine the success of any team. The main reason why teams with ninth graders can do better than teams without ninth graders definitely is not due to the mild to moderate increase in the placement of a few individual events, but the general improvement of the team. Ninth graders provide an example of success; they act as living role models, showing younger kids that through effort, they would also be able to reach the levels of success that the ninth graders have in scioly. It would be best to keep this in mind when thinking of how ninth graders impact the success of a team. If a team without ninth graders is able to effectively motivate the team members and inspire them to put in the effort to be the best, that team will be successful, and I think that is largely the reason behind Daniel Wright’s consistently strong placements at nationals.