Binder Events

[SilverBreeze]

eh test writers can always ask super random things regardless of binder event or not- I don't think they really take into consideration what resources you have that much while writing

I think JoeyC's point is that the random question will essentially not exist because with the constraint of a cheatsheet, no team will have the random data and will all get it wrong. However, with a binder, it is essentially shove as much stuff in as you can hoping you get lucky and the test writer covers that random topic and not a different one. Meanwhile, I am being sad in Orni even though I love the topic having never done a binder event before.

still doesn't prevent some teams from randomly knowing it or guessing it correctly

Definitely true... but reduced odds and less justifiable because test writers can't just say we should have it in our binders.

[JoeyC]

Yeah, as Silver Breeze says, random questions are more easy to capitalize on with a binder full of notes.
In the end, yes there will be such randomness with or without binders, but what I'm trying to get at is that binders for events like Dynamic Planet and Machines aren't beneficial to the competition - these are events in which, as people have stated, you shouldn't need to rely on your binder/notes, but are growing increasingly so due to the addition of a bulky, costly binder rewarding the rime consuming addition of random data which ends up being the swing points for random questions.

[IHateClouds]

Yeah, as Silver Breeze says, random questions are more easy to capitalize on with a binder full of notes.
In the end, yes there will be such randomness with or without binders, but what I'm trying to get at is that binders for events like Dynamic Planet and Machines aren't beneficial to the competition - these are events in which, as people have stated, you shouldn't need to rely on your binder/notes, but are growing increasingly so due to the addition of a bulky, costly binder rewarding the rime consuming addition of random data which ends up being the swing points for random questions.

but do most teams really go and find a bunch of random obscure info in their binders? like it would seem like taking more tests and notes would be a lot more time efficient than finding random info thats never gonna come up. idk about div C, but in DP i feel like since scoring is generally in the 40-60% range, some obscure questions cant affect placement more than a few places. also, even if you have the info, looking for it in your binder is time-consuming. it also seems like hunting for random facts kind of kills the joy of learning about your event?

altho i agree that the cost of the binder is a big issue...

[JoeyC]

At higher levels scoring can be 80-90% (and usually is) for the top couple of teams - especially if the test is made easier than average.
This means that random questions are almost always the swing points.
This is extremely emphasized when you are taking practice tests and the questions you consistently get wrong are the random questions.

Going along with your points, it is extremely tedious to put random information in a binder. It does take the fun out of an event.
However, doing so can easily be the make-or-break factor because of binders, hence why I dislike the usage of binders in events that don't inherently need them.

[IHateClouds]

At higher levels scoring can be 80-90% (and usually is) for the top couple of teams - especially if the test is made easier than average.
This means that random questions are almost always the swing points.
This is extremely emphasized when you are taking practice tests and the questions you consistently get wrong are the random questions.

Going along with your points, it is extremely tedious to put random information in a binder. It does take the fun out of an event.
However, doing so can easily be the make-or-break factor because of binders, hence why I dislike the usage of binders in events that don't inherently need them.

oooooh okay i see more of the problem now. i just dont normally associate DP with easy tests like certain other events. smh meteo. at the two invies ive gone to, in DP there have been large point gaps because the tests weren't too easy, but i can imagine how in some of the easier tests ive seen the scoring would be totally different. (particularly for C division)

lol i just realized i keep mentioning DP but its the only binder i do oops

[BennyTheJett]

Don't get me wrong, I'm ok with binders for ID, but I think the point of Science Olympiad is to KNOW science (not note taking). I think that people are becoming very reliant on being good note takers and binder flippers, rather than KNOWING the event's content. To answer your point about having bad eyesight, I think there should be events that don't allow notes at all (nullifying bad eyesight or other things). DP/Machines would be great events for that, seeing as they're largely conceptual. Kids would have to know the concepts behind oceanography and machines, and understand multiple processes which drive the ocean or your car. I do believe ID events should have binders, but outside of that, there should honestly be no notes. This would reward the teams that actually learn more about the respective sciences, rather than prove who the best binder flipper is. What's the point of understanding science if you can just read answers to questions off your binder of notes that you copied from the same sources the Test Writers use to make their tests, ensuring that you have the vast majority of the questions correct word for word (I've seen so many flukes in different binder events this year for that sole reason).

Edit: Sorry for the rant.

[twig]

My long rant about how much I don't like binders

As for ID events, I'm going to be doing 2-3 binder events next year, probs solo on DP, I'll have to beg our head coach for that though (maybe I should beg to do all my events solo...but they won't let me (I DON'T NEED A PARTNER FOR METEO EITHER or Rocks )
I don't think that you would need to have a binder in order to be successful in ID. Personally, I think if I were to go solo in Fossils, without a binder, I would still be able to medal. (I’ve practically been doing Fossils alone for the past 2 years anyway) The main concept of events like Orni and Fossils is about random trivia about the specimen that you should have in the binder right? (and other intelligent concepts that I don't want to talk about) sigh... so many repeated questions about what Mammut ate and what Mammuthus ate (STOP putting those questions on tests). I don't like to waste time flipping through the binder (well that's only because our binder was broken), so I try to memorize our entire binder. Sure there are some things that I don't know or remember like the geological history of the Earth and anatomy of these stupid snails, but it's really easy to memorize the ID and information. These students that take the class should know their fossils + lagerstatten and birds by heart. Don't get me wrong, I like having the binder by my side to fact check my answers even though I know that they are right. Not all people are like me and can memorize their binders. I'm pretty sure that I have the best memory on our team( i literally can get a flashback and get the information i want or need. I did this on Sat. trying to memorize what organisms that were found in the La Brea tar pits. I got a flashback to the page in our binder and responded what I remembered was on there. That’s also how I remembered Umaroth from states last year), and that's why I have such a reason to dislike binders for ID events. I know too much trivia for Fossils, but can never be as good as Jeffrey with his knowledge of trivia ;-;

As for DP, I liked last year with the cheat sheet better. It was so conceptual and fun, although I kinda hated taking it. This year gave me a load of more stuff and more binders to work on. (we redid our fossils binder)This year should've been a cheat sheet to prove how much the students know about their oceans. Binders are so pointless in DP and Machines. Sure, they gave us info that we didn't study for, but the testing day is for the pair of students to prove that they know their concepts about the event. It's lucky if you choose the websites and get the trivia, but this is just pure annoying that we have a binder for DP. I already hate being on a time crunch for Fossils with 3-minute stations, and now that this event is a binder event, we surely could be running around the room flipping to find that one piece of trivia that was put on the test just to secure top spots. This is going to be another Fossils and I don't like that

[IHateClouds]

altho i agree trivia is a big part of why binders are disliked, i feel like that's less of an inherent issue of binders and more of the bad test-writing in scioly, which is an entirely different problem.

i honestly prefer a binder because i feel like i can go deeper into the material than i would with a cheat sheet event like meteo because i can't fit the info on two pages. (not that i've had to look at my cheat sheet because everything is so freaking easy =_=) since im less limited on space, i end up studying things that really aren't on the rules but are really interesting without feeling like its a waste of time. (and learning for the fun of it really feels like what scioly is trying to accomplish anyway) its also a lot easier to edit; my computer really cant load my cheat sheets which makes them very tedious to edit but i can break my binder into sections based off the rules. making a binder also allows you not to spend like hours cutting words to fit your notes on a page and image formatting doesn't take forever (which take at least as long as i would imagine trivia finding to take).

maybe im kind of naive but i really dont buy that many teams are becoming too reliant on their notes. there's just no way in the time frame to look through your notes to find info. (unless its an easy test- but thats a different problem.) you cant just print out wikipedia and answer questions without studying. taking notes is studying. i do agree that as BennyTheJett said, if you studied from the same source the event supervisor took the info from, its very unfair to other teams. But I disagree that its an inherent problem to binders. thats very true with cheat sheets and even without them.

welp that was long :/

[JoeyC]

Twig's got a good point on the usefulness of binders in ID events as well -
In order to do good, you should probably know most of the facts by heart, especially as in most tests you won't have the time to flip through a binder to get the answers to the 6-7 questions they'll ask you about one subject.
This means that at high levels it comes down, once again, to putting trivia in your binders that can make-or-break. Further, those new to the event probably can't use their binder effectively in time constraints anyways.

While this is an argument I agree with, one thing to keep in mind is that it takes a lot of time and effort to know even the basic facts they ask you of each subject in an ID event by heart, which is a large effort wall that people will hit pretty fast if you remove binders (though most people are already hitting it cause IDing+navigating to the page in the binder takes a lot of time, and gives you little time to find the answer to a question - if you even have it)

[JoeyC]

you cant just print out wikipedia and answer questions without studying.

wikipedia is a great way to find weird trivia they might ask you

Cheat sheets are hard and tedious to edit, but on the other hand so are Binder notes.
For a binder event, where the ESes can (and will) throw whatever they want at you, every base has to be covered so that Murphy's Law will only throw 5 questions at you that you don't know how to answer.
Therefore you end up with 500 pages of notes which took at least 10 hours to assemble, most of which is trivia. I'll take the cheatsheet anyday over having to deal with assembling a binder full of notes...

Because it's as you say - I don't really need my notes most of the time, unless its trivia, and I'd rather not have to spend so much time collecting trivia in a binder event.

(also a lot of weakish teams can just cruise above quite a few teams on solely notes, or people may not have to study concepts that much due to having extra data handy)