Politics

[EastStroudsburg13]

We have no way of tracking them or keeping count, they just show up and we offer them jobs.

Undocumented immigrants are counted in the census as part of the population, so as people, they are tracked just like any other resident. They aren't tracked specifically as being undocumented because there's no real benefit to doing so.

[TheCrazyChemist]

MadCow2357, Joey C, and EastStroudsburg13 pretty much summed it up for me. China's not going to cave in, the elite have enough money to stay alive and wealthy, and they run China and don't really care about the people or their voice (Tiananmen Square is probably a good example of this). Unlike China, citizens of the US actually have a voice in the government and economy, and I'm pretty sure quite a few of them don't like the price of things going up. I agree that the tariffs are stupid, but straight up picking a fight with China probably isn't going to end well. Meanwhile, literally all of Europe is making fun of the US if you're concerned about image.
Going back to what TCS was talking about, Trump needs to be made ineligible for the next election even if his current term ends. Plus I don't think blackmailing a country to do what he wants is exactly very.... president like.

[DatSciolyBoi]

On the left, here are Democrats:

. They want to abolish the electoral college
. They feel California and New York should hold the most seats because they support them the most
. They have determined that people should be guilty until proven innocent. Like they way they treated Trump from the start, Justice Kavanaugh, etc...
. They believe people who have never owned a slave should have to pay people who were never slaves fro something that happened centuries ago, even though slavery has been around for
THOUSANDS of years
. They want a system of government that has been proven not to work. Not here, not Venezuela, not China.
. They want to take hard-earned money from a hard-working man and give it to someone who refuses to do the same.
. They claim they don’t want open borders but actively talk about abolishing immigration enforcement. In some places they give driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants, and give tax payer money to
funds for their defense. They offer no policies to slow or stop illegal immigration besides let everyone in. They want to expand reasons for asylum such as poverty, which we already have plenty of
within our borders. Some even think they should get to vote.
. They claim Donald Trump is destroying the Constitution, but several of their “Great” changes involve literally changing the Constitution
. They demonize an organization whose only crime is supporting an original Amendment to the Constitution and is mostly funded by ordinary Americans

And then there's Trump. Yes, he hurt people's feelings before, and even the most adamant supporter will have cringed once or twice at his tweets. He wants American workers to actually have jobs instead of handouts and wants us to stand up and stop being taken advantage of in trade deals. Yes, he sometimes goes overboard bragging about himself, and tells lies, but the last guy did too, I think he told a “Lie of the Year.” Sometimes he says things I don’t like or agree with but when you look up at the other party’s ideas…I’ll take Trump over and over again. At least until a better guy comes along.



(Welp, I hope I displayed my side well enough.)

[DatSciolyBoi]

Meanwhile, literally all of Europe is making fun of the US if you're concerned about image.

*When you see a British dude mocking your president but you remember that in the span of a century, they went from owning 1/4 of the world to living on a island smaller than California*

[TheCrazyChemist]

Meanwhile, literally all of Europe is making fun of the US if you're concerned about image.

*When you see a British dude mocking your president but you remember that in the span of a century, they went from owning 1/4 of the world to living on a island smaller than California*

Lol not just British. I've been to quite a few countries around the world in the last 3 years (not a flex, it's background info), and when any of them talk about our government, they're making fun of it. I will PM you all the countries if it makes you feel better.

Also, no that you've listed all the reasons not to vote for the Dems, please list all the reasons to vote for republicans. I would like to see more positive outlooks rather than negative ones. "I want to vote for .... because ...." rather than "I'm not going to vote for .... so I'l vote for ....".

[EastStroudsburg13]

Just in the interest of full transparency:

On the left, here are Democrats:

. They want to abolish the electoral college

Fine with that, the Electoral College is super outdated. I think there are more important things to be worrying about, though. Neutral on this.

. They feel California and New York should hold the most seats because they support them the most

No, they feel California and New York should hold the most seats because they have the most people. Notice they're not seeking to reduce the amount of seats Texas has. This is a Republican talking point designed to misinform their supporters.

. They have determined that people should be guilty until proven innocent. Like they way they treated Trump from the start, Justice Kavanaugh, etc...

Innocent until proven guilty is only applicable in the court of law. When it comes to holding higher office, higher standards of conduct are warranted. Note the Al Franken situation.

. They believe people who have never owned a slave should have to pay people who were never slaves fro something that happened centuries ago, even though slavery has been around for
THOUSANDS of years

"Just because other people did it, it means we aren't at fault and don't have to do anything" is not a good argument. We should be taking initiative to bridge racial inequalities and injustices and be a leader on that front without worrying about what other people have done or will do.

. They want a system of government that has been proven not to work. Not here, not Venezuela, not China.

Assuming you're talking about socialism here, if the Democrats wanted socialism, they would be supporting Bernie Sanders, not trying to marginalize him. Even then, he supports democratic socialism, not authoritative socialism that Venezuela and China are known for. Demonizing Democrats by saying they're all socialists is another false Republican talking point designed to misinform their supporters and divide our country.

. They want to take hard-earned money from a hard-working man and give it to someone who refuses to do the same.

Aside from the fact that this is another over-simplified Republican talking point, unless your income is seven figures or more, you don't have to worry about your "hard-earned money" being taken away, especially if the candidate is further to the left (i.e. Warren, Sanders). Plus, this point is dangerous in that it characterizes poor people as not being hard-working. There will always be people who don't work hard, but by punishing everyone else who does, it just further increases income inequality.

. They claim they don’t want open borders but actively talk about abolishing immigration enforcement. In some places they give driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants, and give tax payer money to
funds for their defense. They offer no policies to slow or stop illegal immigration besides let everyone in. They want to expand reasons for asylum such as poverty, which we already have plenty of
within our borders. Some even think they should get to vote.

There is a huge middle ground between open borders and a wall/deportation. There will still be forms of enforcement, just not unnecessary ones. Also, what's wrong with giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants?

. They claim Donald Trump is destroying the Constitution, but several of their “Great” changes involve literally changing the Constitution

There is a difference between making amendments to the Constitution and upholding the values of the Constitution. Claiming that Trump is "destroying the Constitution" is pretty alarmist language from the left and not one I necessarily subscribe to fully, but when they claim that, they're talking about values and not the text.

. They demonize an organization whose only crime is supporting an original Amendment to the Constitution and is mostly funded by ordinary Americans

Well, the NRA also has a history of information suppression and propaganda tactics, which in turn has convinced many ordinary Americans that they have to keep donating to the NRA to keep their guns. The NRA doesn't really care about safety as much as influence.

And then there's Trump. Yes, he hurt people's feelings before, and even the most adamant supporter will have cringed once or twice at his tweets. He wants American workers to actually have jobs instead of handouts and wants us to stand up and stop being taken advantage of in trade deals. Yes, he sometimes goes overboard bragging about himself, and tells lies, but the last guy did too, I think he told a “Lie of the Year.” Sometimes he says things I don’t like or agree with but when you look up at the other party’s ideas…I’ll take Trump over and over again. At least until a better guy comes along.

Not going to take the bait about Obama, although I will say that demonizing him is yet another Republican talking point. But actions speak louder than words. Many of his actions have been to protect large corporations and the 1%, not the majority of the American people. Words are empty if you can't follow it up with real action.

(Welp, I hope I displayed my side well enough.)

I hope I did the same.

[Unome]

On the left, here are Democrats:

. They want to abolish the electoral college
. They feel California and New York should hold the most seats because they support them the most
. They have determined that people should be guilty until proven innocent. Like they way they treated Trump from the start, Justice Kavanaugh, etc...
. They believe people who have never owned a slave should have to pay people who were never slaves fro something that happened centuries ago, even though slavery has been around for
THOUSANDS of years
. They want a system of government that has been proven not to work. Not here, not Venezuela, not China.
. They want to take hard-earned money from a hard-working man and give it to someone who refuses to do the same.
. They claim they don’t want open borders but actively talk about abolishing immigration enforcement. In some places they give driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants, and give tax payer money to
funds for their defense. They offer no policies to slow or stop illegal immigration besides let everyone in. They want to expand reasons for asylum such as poverty, which we already have plenty of
within our borders. Some even think they should get to vote.
. They claim Donald Trump is destroying the Constitution, but several of their “Great” changes involve literally changing the Constitution
. They demonize an organization whose only crime is supporting an original Amendment to the Constitution and is mostly funded by ordinary Americans

And then there's Trump. Yes, he hurt people's feelings before, and even the most adamant supporter will have cringed once or twice at his tweets. He wants American workers to actually have jobs instead of handouts and wants us to stand up and stop being taken advantage of in trade deals. Yes, he sometimes goes overboard bragging about himself, and tells lies, but the last guy did too, I think he told a “Lie of the Year.” Sometimes he says things I don’t like or agree with but when you look up at the other party’s ideas…I’ll take Trump over and over again. At least until a better guy comes along.



(Welp, I hope I displayed my side well enough.)

Repeating talking points is not going to get you anywhere. You're making a lot of assumptions about your opposition's beliefs, in both things you think they don't agree with you on, and things you think they do, which might not be tue.

[TheCrazyChemist]

EastStroudsburg13 made some really good points.
1. The purpose of the Electoral College was so that uneducated people didn't decide an election. The vote was supposed to be more in the hands of educated electors, not the people who were largely uneducated. However, the education system has come a long way since then. Young children are required to go to school or have proof of learning on par with school. Anybody can search up a party's campaign. It's not that hard to be educated these days; in fact, it's actually harder to be uneducated, defeating the whole purpose of the Electoral College.
2. Not everyone who's a democrat supports intense socialism.... and the socialism that those candidates are proposing is not at all like China's or Venezuela's.
3. The gun argument is complex, but I want to pose a simple point. If fewer people have guns, will there be less violence?
4. I would cringe a lot (which is an understatement) if the candidate I supported withheld monetary aid from a country before asking them to investigate into one of the candidate's opponents in the upcoming election.

By the way, I want to make it clear that if for some reason I get really passionate and kinda aggressive about this, it's nothing personal. We're just having a lively debate.

[MadCow2357]

On the left, here are Democrats:

. They want to abolish the electoral college
. They feel California and New York should hold the most seats because they support them the most
. They have determined that people should be guilty until proven innocent. Like they way they treated Trump from the start, Justice Kavanaugh, etc...
. They believe people who have never owned a slave should have to pay people who were never slaves fro something that happened centuries ago, even though slavery has been around for
THOUSANDS of years
. They want a system of government that has been proven not to work. Not here, not Venezuela, not China.
. They want to take hard-earned money from a hard-working man and give it to someone who refuses to do the same.
. They claim they don’t want open borders but actively talk about abolishing immigration enforcement. In some places they give driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants, and give tax payer money to
funds for their defense. They offer no policies to slow or stop illegal immigration besides let everyone in. They want to expand reasons for asylum such as poverty, which we already have plenty of
within our borders. Some even think they should get to vote.
. They claim Donald Trump is destroying the Constitution, but several of their “Great” changes involve literally changing the Constitution
. They demonize an organization whose only crime is supporting an original Amendment to the Constitution and is mostly funded by ordinary Americans

And then there's Trump. Yes, he hurt people's feelings before, and even the most adamant supporter will have cringed once or twice at his tweets. He wants American workers to actually have jobs instead of handouts and wants us to stand up and stop being taken advantage of in trade deals. Yes, he sometimes goes overboard bragging about himself, and tells lies, but the last guy did too, I think he told a “Lie of the Year.” Sometimes he says things I don’t like or agree with but when you look up at the other party’s ideas…I’ll take Trump over and over again. At least until a better guy comes along.



(Welp, I hope I displayed my side well enough.)

Every time you state a reason why Trump is good and the Democrats are bad, your points are easily taken down with simple logic and information. Instead of stating new wild reasons to support Trump and hate Democrats every time some addresses your previous words, I'd suggest responding back with sound logic or at least acknowledgment of our thoughts. Arguing with you is kind of a waste of time since everything you say is regurgitated from popular Republican talking points - many of which are untrue and hopelessly manipulated to control supporters. You can say as much as you want, but without defending and explaining those points previously stated, all of it is useless.

Respond to my previous post please, interested to hear your thoughts on my specific examples.

[TheChiScientist]

Just in the interest of full transparency:

On the left, here are Democrats:

. They want to abolish the electoral college

Fine with that, the Electoral College is super outdated. I think there are more important things to be worrying about, though. Neutral on this.

. They feel California and New York should hold the most seats because they support them the most

No, they feel California and New York should hold the most seats because they have the most people. Notice they're not seeking to reduce the amount of seats Texas has. This is a Republican talking point designed to misinform their supporters.

. They have determined that people should be guilty until proven innocent. Like they way they treated Trump from the start, Justice Kavanaugh, etc...

Innocent until proven guilty is only applicable in the court of law. When it comes to holding higher office, higher standards of conduct are warranted. Note the Al Franken situation.

. They believe people who have never owned a slave should have to pay people who were never slaves fro something that happened centuries ago, even though slavery has been around for
THOUSANDS of years

"Just because other people did it, it means we aren't at fault and don't have to do anything" is not a good argument. We should be taking initiative to bridge racial inequalities and injustices and be a leader on that front without worrying about what other people have done or will do.

. They want a system of government that has been proven not to work. Not here, not Venezuela, not China.

Assuming you're talking about socialism here, if the Democrats wanted socialism, they would be supporting Bernie Sanders, not trying to marginalize him. Even then, he supports democratic socialism, not authoritative socialism that Venezuela and China are known for. Demonizing Democrats by saying they're all socialists is another false Republican talking point designed to misinform their supporters and divide our country.

. They want to take hard-earned money from a hard-working man and give it to someone who refuses to do the same.

Aside from the fact that this is another over-simplified Republican talking point, unless your income is seven figures or more, you don't have to worry about your "hard-earned money" being taken away, especially if the candidate is further to the left (i.e. Warren, Sanders). Plus, this point is dangerous in that it characterizes poor people as not being hard-working. There will always be people who don't work hard, but by punishing everyone else who does, it just further increases income inequality.

. They claim they don’t want open borders but actively talk about abolishing immigration enforcement. In some places they give driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants, and give tax payer money to
funds for their defense. They offer no policies to slow or stop illegal immigration besides let everyone in. They want to expand reasons for asylum such as poverty, which we already have plenty of
within our borders. Some even think they should get to vote.

There is a huge middle ground between open borders and a wall/deportation. There will still be forms of enforcement, just not unnecessary ones. Also, what's wrong with giving driver's licenses to illegal immigrants?

. They claim Donald Trump is destroying the Constitution, but several of their “Great” changes involve literally changing the Constitution

There is a difference between making amendments to the Constitution and upholding the values of the Constitution. Claiming that Trump is "destroying the Constitution" is pretty alarmist language from the left and not one I necessarily subscribe to fully, but when they claim that, they're talking about values and not the text.

. They demonize an organization whose only crime is supporting an original Amendment to the Constitution and is mostly funded by ordinary Americans

Well, the NRA also has a history of information suppression and propaganda tactics, which in turn has convinced many ordinary Americans that they have to keep donating to the NRA to keep their guns. The NRA doesn't really care about safety as much as influence.

And then there's Trump. Yes, he hurt people's feelings before, and even the most adamant supporter will have cringed once or twice at his tweets. He wants American workers to actually have jobs instead of handouts and wants us to stand up and stop being taken advantage of in trade deals. Yes, he sometimes goes overboard bragging about himself, and tells lies, but the last guy did too, I think he told a “Lie of the Year.” Sometimes he says things I don’t like or agree with but when you look up at the other party’s ideas…I’ll take Trump over and over again. At least until a better guy comes along.

Not going to take the bait about Obama, although I will say that demonizing him is yet another Republican talking point. But actions speak louder than words. Many of his actions have been to protect large corporations and the 1%, not the majority of the American people. Words are empty if you can't follow it up with real action.

(Welp, I hope I displayed my side well enough.)

I hope I did the same.

I have to side with East here as all his points are quite accurate. Some things.
1. What's wrong with trying to integrate illegals that pay taxes and don't commit crimes? Illegals are paying taxes for the most part and they get none of the benefits us U.S citizens get. (Social Security, Organ Transplants, Driver Licenses, etc)
2. I'm pro 2nd amendment here but the NRA is just plain stupid. They're nothing but an organization that falsely represents the 2nd amendment. They should be using their funds to educate gun owners on safety and proper use. Not influencing elections and whatnot.
3. Pro socialist here. (I think most of the forums knows that by now ) Note that the following countries are examples of "successful socialism" where socialist concepts where implemented. Norway, Finland, Sweden, Denmark, Great Britain, Canada, the Netherlands, Spain, Ireland, Belgium, Switzerland, Australia, Japan, and New Zealand. Bolivia is the best example of a socialist country with them drastically cutting extreme poverty and having the highest GDP growth rate in South America. Cuba and Venezuela are popular examples of failed socialism because of their dictators but note this is socialism in a dictatorship. Not a democracy like many of the countries I've mentioned.
4. 1% guys. 1%. The wealth isn't going up for the common folk here. Also, we need to realize all of Trump's "economic reforms" will be temporary. We will lose the trade war. Unemployment will go back up.
End of the day we are better off with someone else being president. Idc if they're republican or democrat. We just need logical policies put into place.