Junkyard Challenge B

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by without » February 17th, 2010, 6:25 pm

The rules state that after 60 seconds, the timer stops and no other traps triggered or things happening count. Task completion MUST happen before 60 seconds or it doesn't count. And yes, electronics are ruining this event, but i'm using them also.
acanoli wrote:So, if you get 60.5 seconds, then you get a perfect score for timing, but then the "task completion" happens AFTER 60 seconds have passed, right? i just saw a clarification that says that 60.9 seconds is ok. But the timer doesnt even go to 60.9 seconds, does it? doesn't the time stop after 60? so there would be no task completion? please someone explain this to me... i'm confused...
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by fleet130 » February 17th, 2010, 8:04 pm

It's not electronics that are ruining the event. It should be expected that teams will use whatever is allowable under the rules. To do otherwise would be foolish if the resources are available to a team. It is therefore incumbent on the rule writers to limit what is allowed by placing appropriate language in the rules.

What's "ruining" the event is permitting "parallel" processing. The precision required for a "perfect" score is attainable using purely mechanical and/or electromechanical components. Integrated circuits are unnecessary.
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by cooltiger » February 18th, 2010, 6:45 am

robodude wrote:I'm going to submit a rule clarification, but I want everyone else's opinion too.

So we are about to have a face off at our school to see who competes in this event at regionals, and the other team is doing pretty well. The only problem is is that they have tied all of their mousetraps together (N > S > W > E), and as a result they all go off in the span of about 1/4 a second. They say that they can PROVE that the mousetraps are tripped separately by looking at the strings. I say that the rules say that the order must be "plainly obvious", and that you can't see the difference, and they say that it IS plainly obvious, you just have to look at the strings.

Whats your opinion?
I wouldn't take the risk, if it isn't plainly obvious, judges may not buy it. I personaly have, rather than having the strings directly set it off. Pull a blocker of a ramp allowing a marble roll down a ramp and set if off. This is enough of a delay to tell the diffrence.
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by wlsguy » February 18th, 2010, 12:24 pm

acanoli wrote:So, if you get 60.5 seconds, then you get a perfect score for timing, but then the "task completion" happens AFTER 60 seconds have passed, right? i just saw a clarification that says that 60.9 seconds is ok. But the timer doesnt even go to 60.9 seconds, does it? doesn't the time stop after 60? so there would be no task completion? please someone explain this to me... i'm confused...
The rules and FAQs are confusing. The FAQs are making it even more so.
Basically the FAQs allow all tasks to be scored if they occur before 60.99 seconds.
The reasoning was that 60.99 seconds is only 60 "whole" seconds and time does not stop until AFTER 60 (implied "whole") seconds have passed.
This doesn't occur until the timer reaches 61.00 seconds. They specifically point out that tasks performed before 60.99 receive full points

At Nationals it's all going to come down to the precision of the event supervisors stopwatches.
I think one of the first statements on this thread was "expect a 20 way tie for first..." and I agree.

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by Brucester » February 18th, 2010, 12:43 pm

Sorry, not a circuit master, but the robots and machines being used are making this event too easy, the team that manages to set it up fast enough wins. I completely agree that at Nats, there's going to be a 20 way tie for first. The team that wins is going to be able to open their box, move the traps, set the traps, and go. I imagine by the time of Nats, people will be able to do this in 30 seconds.

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by without » February 19th, 2010, 9:06 am

Im all the way with you, but why not do it when you wont win any other way?
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by StampingKid » February 19th, 2010, 10:08 am

Set up time is not a tie-breaker on a perfect score. It is longest time of operation up to 60 seconds. So, how many tenths of second do you risk in programming. There are three possible places for human reaction time to be factored in--starting of the stop watch, dropping of the ball and stopping of the watch. As Clint Eastwood said "Do you feel lucky?"
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by cooltiger » February 20th, 2010, 2:38 pm

StampingKid wrote:Set up time is not a tie-breaker on a perfect score. It is longest time of operation up to 60 seconds. So, how many tenths of second do you risk in programming. There are three possible places for human reaction time to be factored in--starting of the stop watch, dropping of the ball and stopping of the watch. As Clint Eastwood said "Do you feel lucky?"
This is why we are safer than most of you we think. Anyone who programs for 60+ (60-60.99) is probaly going to lose due to human error. I would personaly do 59 making human error = 60-60.99.
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by without » February 22nd, 2010, 9:13 am

I know from experience in swimming that even with a light, human error can go EITHER way the time may be started fast (58-58.99) to slow (61-61.99)
cooltiger wrote:
StampingKid wrote:Set up time is not a tie-breaker on a perfect score. It is longest time of operation up to 60 seconds. So, how many tenths of second do you risk in programming. There are three possible places for human reaction time to be factored in--starting of the stop watch, dropping of the ball and stopping of the watch. As Clint Eastwood said "Do you feel lucky?"
This is why we are safer than most of you we think. Anyone who programs for 60+ (60-60.99) is probaly going to lose due to human error. I would personaly do 59 making human error = 60-60.99.
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by StampingKid » February 23rd, 2010, 7:34 pm

Done building and now have started worrying. Here's my question--What constitutes a trip? The rules do not say tripped but "must trip" and notes the tripping mechanism. My device uses an arm attached to the kill bar on the north trap to pull a string and trip the south trap. However, the bar does not allow the kill bar on the north trap to fully rotate 180 degrees-- more like 60=75 degrees. Without specifying fully trip or rotated 180 degrees, I think that once the tripping mechanism is set off the trap is tripped.
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