Junkyard Challenge B

[ichaelm]

Well I know I got a perfect score, and we got 8th place. We took a video and timed it at 60.2. But they were using 5 people with stopwatches! So idk if they got that too. It just came down to my fingers and their fingers.

[mrcadman]

Meh,
Ours timed out to 60.0002 according to our video, and the same given our jumper settings showed on the device display.
The judges even showed the kids a stopwatch with an even 60.00.
14 teams managed to get inside that 0.0002 seconds. Amazing!
We just appreciate that they at least took the event seriously enough to not use a sun-dial! An event that demands perfect time, scored by 5 teens with stopwatches, two were looking into the crowd. Then on the last trip look down and then pushes their buttons.

We are hopeful that someday, this little Scioly organization or a University even, will manage to obtain the same technology and master science as well as........ middle school children.
But it was fun. The kids learned science and technology. Unfortunately, they also learned that all their hard work and practice came down to 5 teen's thumbs. I suppose that's fair on a micro-time event, since we all know humans can be so attentive and predictable all day, right?

unsubscribed

[brobo]

Isn't the topic for JYC suppsoed to be decided the week after Nationals? If so, it would be really cool if someone could inform the rest of us the topic the moment it comes out! I already have my pencils, ducttape, and bucket of random stuff ready, so now I just need the goal...

Thanks!

[gyourkoshaven]

The committee meetings began on Sunday, I believe, and the tentative events list should come out in a week or two (If it's like last year). However the task won't be known until the rules come out.

[haven chuck]

Meh,
Ours timed out to 60.0002 according to our video, and the same given our jumper settings showed on the device display.
The judges even showed the kids a stopwatch with an even 60.00.
14 teams managed to get inside that 0.0002 seconds. Amazing!
We just appreciate that they at least took the event seriously enough to not use a sun-dial! An event that demands perfect time, scored by 5 teens with stopwatches, two were looking into the crowd. Then on the last trip look down and then pushes their buttons.

We are hopeful that someday, this little Scioly organization or a University even, will manage to obtain the same technology and master science as well as........ middle school children.
But it was fun. The kids learned science and technology. Unfortunately, they also learned that all their hard work and practice came down to 5 teen's thumbs. I suppose that's fair on a micro-time event, since we all know humans can be so attentive and predictable all day, right?

unsubscribed

I'm guessing you're from Bearden? If so, you were right next to us (Strath Haven) when you went. First off, I just want to say that your device looked amazing, with the timing display and lighthouse top, and it was really cool to watch. Anyway, they take the median of the 5 times, so even if there was 1 perfect timer, it might have been the highest or second highest, and the median score was probably around 59.99, thus dropping you below all the teams who got scored 60-60.99. It's disappointing that they did the timing this way, since there were better ways out there (look through this thread) that wouldn't have been impossible to use, but for what it's worth, I definitely think you guys should have medaled.

[ichaelm]

Mrcadman: I really doubt that 14 teams got better than 60.0002 seconds. The reaction time of the person dropping the ball is not nearly that accurate. So even if the judges were using a perfect timing system (and they weren't), it would be impossible to be that accurate consistently. Also, our video showed 60.2 seconds between me dropping the ball and the 4th mouse trap tripping, and that doesn't even factor in my reaction time, so we probably got over 60.2 seconds, yet we still got 8th place.

Since you guys got 15th place, it's impossible that you got better than 6.2 seconds (assuming the mean score was somewhere close to accurate), as well as anyone between 9th and 14th. Not that you were bad or something; it all came down to human reaction time on both sides (the judges and the competitors). So if all of the 1st through 15th place teams had electronics (or something else that was just a good and actually creative), then it really all came down to luck between those places! So congratz to everyone who competed in the 15-or-more-sided dice roll for JYC at nats! Even if the judges had used a good timing system, it would have still depended on human reaction time, which can not be that accurate. Man, they really messed up on the rules this year.

Another note: if your device had a digital readout on it for the time, then that's really useless because it doesn't factor in the time it took for the ball to leave the person's hand and hit the switch, nor does it factor in the competitor's reaction time. Just wondering, what kinds of systems did everyone use? I saw some electric ones, like motors turning strings, or RC circuits. I used a BASIC stamp 1, and some high-power BJTs salvaged from this old computer I found on the side of the road. We used motors that tugged on short tight strings to trip the mouse traps. Did anyone here get a medal?

[gyourkoshaven]

LOL. 4th Post in the thread. Fester is psychic.

About the only thing linking the video with the 09-10 event are the "four parts".

In short, what you're doing is:
assemble the thing on-site with all parts and tools crammed inside a box
drop the ball
snap mousetrap #1
snap mousetrap #2
snap mousetrap #3
snap mousetrap #4
and take a specified amount of time doing it.

Assorted penalties for stuff like mousetraps bouncing around, traps not snapping in correct order, timing being off, traps not being the correct distance from the center, etc.

20-way tie for first place!

[jander14indoor]

Note, the event was never 'intended' to be a precision timed, it was 'intended' to be build on site. Unfortunately the rules didn't implement that intent. If it had been foreseen to need this level of precision to distinquish results, the rules would have been changed. While it is possible to time to thousands of a second as discussed on this forum, the results would still have reflected random chance, NOT student expertise. As already mentioned, students reaction in dropping the ball to a prompt had error larger than a tenth of a second which covered multiple otherwise perfect teams!

Oh, and how did you time with a video to ten thousandths of a second? Normal frame rate is 30 frames per second, that's only good to 3 hundredths. Did you have a highspeed video? 10000 frames per second? You can get that kind of precision with audio, but not normal video.

OK, lesson learned, new rules for next year will hopefully get this event where it was intended, a build on site event which challenges students to prepare engineered solutions in advance, bring a plan of attack to the contest, but to react to 'surprises' the day of the event.

For next year:
The Junkyard contents will be specified for the students. Students provide the materials up to what will fit in a standard box along with all tools for impound. The items will be common, low cost materials, plates, straws, toothpicks, etc. Students provide junkyard contents to fill the box. No pre-assembly.
The tasks will be generically pre-specified with some degree of variation you only learn on site, but nothing like the unknown material of several years back.
The tasks break down into two broad categories. Structures and materiel movers. Students will learn which general task they must execute and its specific parameters at the tournament.
Scoring will be open ended efficiency type measures. No such thing as a perfect score like last year. No need for levels of precision which guanrantee random selection of the winner.

I'm not going to get more specific as the rules are still in draft and may change, but not hugely from that overview.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI

[ichaelm]

Thanks for the info!!! Sounds kind of like mystery architecture from, I think 2007? That was a good/hard/fun event! Although I'll be in division C next year, so I (probably) won't have the opportunity to do junkyard.

[wlsguy]

I think next year that LESS rules is actually better. The idea of specifying the junkyard box contents will only increase the likelihood that every team will have the same device. They will look around and all copy each other. The rules this year were too restrictive.

I would suggest that the rules be made vaguer. Obviously glue, taping to the floor, dangerous items, and similar things should be banned. Other than that, everything should be ok.

The key is to change the task for every competition (like WIDI changes models) and give the task to the teams with a limited amount of time for pre-building (say a week before the competition). This allows for some (not all) pre-building, allows for the event supervisor to make modifications to make the tasks more difficult for their area (Ohio State vs Regional tournaments), and keeps everyone thinking throughout the season.

Bonuses still need to be awarded for teams finishing in 30 minutes and all teams must finish in the 1 time slot. The event supervisor at each tournament can come up with their own tasks and point structure (again like WIDI). Event supervisors can be encouraged to submit their tasks to the soinc site or add them to the wiki so they help others come up with new ideas and methods.

This is similar to the original concept of the event and would be better than another round like this year or another Mystery Arch.

What does everyone else think? I know that many soinc leaders read this forum and, if you have opinions, they may take them into consideration.