Junkyard Challenge B

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by cooltiger » February 16th, 2010, 6:45 am

without wrote:You probably would need to show them that the mousetrap is there, and then if they are sure of the times and such, show them the traps afterwards.
penclspinner wrote:
robodude wrote:I need a rule clarification, so I decided to ask if anyone knew the answer to it.
I've made some changes to my contraption, so now the balls roll down some tubes and to the mousetraps. The mousetraps are in a elbow joint, made of PVC pipe, so the pipe leads straight to the PVC pipe then drops straight into the elbow joint, and onto the mousetrap. The problem is that you can't see the mousetrap. Will it be ok that the judges can see the ball roll down the pipe, which clearly leads to the mousetrap, and hear the mouse trap be set? or do they have to actually see the mousetrap set off?
Humm...this is an interesting question. To be honest, I would first send an email your regional/state director asking them to provide an answer.
That seems like the safest thing to do along with sending in a rule clarification to soinc if you so choose. Though, states have in the past have had specific rules which do not conform to certain national standards so it's your best bet to be in contact with your immediate director.
I would guess that as long as they can see the mousetrap is their and set, and then they hear it go off, they will be ok. Also, according to rule clairifcations, no taping to the floor is allowed. http://soinc.org/node/480
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by brobo » February 16th, 2010, 2:47 pm

I'm going to submit a rule clarification, but I want everyone else's opinion too.

So we are about to have a face off at our school to see who competes in this event at regionals, and the other team is doing pretty well. The only problem is is that they have tied all of their mousetraps together (N > S > W > E), and as a result they all go off in the span of about 1/4 a second. They say that they can PROVE that the mousetraps are tripped separately by looking at the strings. I say that the rules say that the order must be "plainly obvious", and that you can't see the difference, and they say that it IS plainly obvious, you just have to look at the strings.

Whats your opinion?
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by penclspinner » February 16th, 2010, 3:40 pm

robodude wrote:I'm going to submit a rule clarification, but I want everyone else's opinion too.

So we are about to have a face off at our school to see who competes in this event at regionals, and the other team is doing pretty well. The only problem is is that they have tied all of their mousetraps together (N > S > W > E), and as a result they all go off in the span of about 1/4 a second. They say that they can PROVE that the mousetraps are tripped separately by looking at the strings. I say that the rules say that the order must be "plainly obvious", and that you can't see the difference, and they say that it IS plainly obvious, you just have to look at the strings.

Whats your opinion?
I think it's going to be hard to get a clarification for this question since the national judges will not be able to "see" the device and they are usually not inclined to pre-judge a device that they have not inspected themselves.

Imho "plainly obvious" is going to mean something slightly different to every event supervisor and it's going to be up to the event supervisor to determine whether or not this case is obvious or not.

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by AlphaTauri » February 16th, 2010, 4:11 pm

Personally, I think "the order of the trips must be plainly obvious" means, ok, you see/hear the North trap go off, there's a little delay, you see/hear the West trap go off, etc. Someone looking at your device for the first time during it's run should be able to easily tell which trap goes off first, second, third, and last, though I agree with penclspinner, every judge is going to have a different opinion of what is "obvious" and what isn't.
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by fleet130 » February 16th, 2010, 7:38 pm

I agree! After watching the device operate, there should be no question as to whether the mousetraps were set off in the proper order. If it is necessary to examine the device to "prove" the mousetraps were set off in the proper order, it's not "plainly obvious".
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by brobo » February 16th, 2010, 8:03 pm

Belg. I just got the rule clarification back, and it pretty much said "We can't answer that question, so we're just going to leave it up to the event coordinator." We'll just have to see... :|
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by Brucester » February 16th, 2010, 9:49 pm

I've noticed that INTEGRATED CIRCUITS have, in a way, ruined the event. I think it was originally mean to be a Rube Goldberg type device, now it's just electronics....Does anybody agree with me?
It did make me happy to see a team show up with nothing but 8 packs of dominoes, a ruler, and 4 mousetraps! :lol:
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by brobo » February 17th, 2010, 11:10 am

True, and that was an issue raised earlier in this thread: most contraptions at Nats will probably be the same, with a microprocessor and a few gates or arms to set off the mousetraps. But there is only so much you can do with 6 volts, and the NXT/RCX isn't the best robotics kit in the world; its more of a toy.
Most contraptions that I have seen with electronics are still Rube Goldburg like, they just use the electronics to time the device a little, like me. The balls that I release with my NXT still have to roll down a few ramps, a few toggle like devices, and a few tubes.

Weighing the pros and cons, electronics DO seem like a good idea to make your device precise, but they can be limiting and are generally more frowned upon "in the spirt of the competition"
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by Brucester » February 17th, 2010, 1:45 pm

Actually, every team I've seen place in the top 10, anywhere competitive is using electronics and nothing else. Robot kits like that are extremely precise. Their times are rounding to 60 seconds so they get perfect scores. It all comes down to set up time now. Hopefully, next year this event's rule's will be changed to eliminate integrated circuits
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Post by acanoli » February 17th, 2010, 5:38 pm

So, if you get 60.5 seconds, then you get a perfect score for timing, but then the "task completion" happens AFTER 60 seconds have passed, right? i just saw a clarification that says that 60.9 seconds is ok. But the timer doesnt even go to 60.9 seconds, does it? doesn't the time stop after 60? so there would be no task completion? please someone explain this to me... i'm confused...

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