Junkyard Challenge B

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby ohiostar » April 7th, 2010, 11:25 am

I was informed by our SO advisor that this event 'Junkyard Challenge' will be considered a trial event at our state (Ohio)competition. We can still metal but our score will not help the team. Has anyone heard this or know why this was done?

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby brobo » April 7th, 2010, 11:35 am

As far as I know, JYC is NOT a "trial event". Its considered a full event, for all states. Trial events only appear in a single state, and JYC is in all states.
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby fleet130 » April 7th, 2010, 11:46 am

From http://www.ced.osu.edu/scioly/
3/22/10: Updated tentative schedules: division B and division C, Trajectory Clarification, parking at Ohio State, map of Ohio State. Please note: Junkyard Challenge, Division B, has been changed to a trial event.
Information expressed here is solely the opinion of the author. Any similarity to that of the management or any official instrument is purely coincidental! Doing Science Olympiad since 1987!

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby fmtiger124 » April 7th, 2010, 4:54 pm

robodude wrote:Trial events only appear in a single state.

not always, Helicopter is offered in numerous states and nats offers trials if they were only in single states nats wouldn't have them
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby acanoli » April 7th, 2010, 6:01 pm

Can anyone explain to me why a device can run for 6.9 seconds and still complete the task?

Section 3.b wrote:The device must trip all 4 unmodified mousetraps within 1 minute to receive maximum points.

Section 3.i wrote:Timing will stop when the intended fourth mousetrap is tripped or when 60 seconds is reached. Actions occurring after 60 seconds will not be scored.

End of Section 4 wrote:Ties will be broken as follows: 1. Fewest penalty points; 2. Longest time of operation up to 60 seconds.


60 seconds is equal to 60 seconds. Even if it did say "whole seconds," 60 whole seconds is STILL equal to 60 seconds. That's simpler than math. The only place where the rules mention "whole seconds" is here:

Section 4.g wrote:2 points for each whole second the device operates up to task completion


But obviously, if it operates for longer than 60 seconds, there is no task completion, according to section 3.i. 1 minute is 60 seconds, not 60.9. I have no idea why the FAQ said what it did on February 2. Can anyone explain how a device can run for 60.9 seconds get the maximum score?

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby haven chuck » April 7th, 2010, 6:10 pm

This was posted on soinc.org, so it is official- http://soinc.org/node/533
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby nejanimb » April 7th, 2010, 6:24 pm

Think of it this way - at 60.9 seconds, how many whole seconds have elapsed? 60. At 61.0 seconds, 61 seconds will have elapsed. Thus, this would be out of the range. At 59.9 seconds, how many seconds have elapsed? Only 59 whole seconds have. This is the reason. I would have thought, just from the rules, that 60.01 should be a better score than 60.99, but the rule clarification makes it clear that that is not the case.

I think it's very smart that Ohio made it a trial event. That's quite a statement for them to make, but in such a competitive state with so many strong schools, my thinking is that they decided they didn't want the nationals qualifier to be decided by judge subjectivity in JYC, since there will be so many schools that are so close that it could swing it as many as 10 points, which is enough to change overall standings significantly.
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby acanoli » April 7th, 2010, 6:28 pm

FAQs aren't extensions of the rules, are they? They're just supposed to agree with the rules. Clarifications are extensions of the rules. And in this case, the FAQ disagrees with the rules. I really don't get it.

nejanimb wrote:Think of it this way - at 60.9 seconds, how many whole seconds have elapsed? 60. At 61.0 seconds, 61 seconds will have elapsed. Thus, this would be out of the range. At 59.9 seconds, how many seconds have elapsed? Only 59 whole seconds have. This is the reason. I would have thought, just from the rules, that 60.01 should be a better score than 60.99, but the rule clarification makes it clear that that is not the case.

I think it's very smart that Ohio made it a trial event. That's quite a statement for them to make, but in such a competitive state with so many strong schools, my thinking is that they decided they didn't want the nationals qualifier to be decided by judge subjectivity in JYC, since there will be so many schools that are so close that it could swing it as many as 10 points, which is enough to change overall standings significantly.


The rules don't mention whole seconds, except in the 2 points rule. So yes, according to that rule, a 60.5 second machine that comleted the task would get 120 points for time. But according to the other rules, which do not use "whole seconds," this could never happen, because there would be no task completion.

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby wlsguy » April 7th, 2010, 6:33 pm

acanoli wrote:Can anyone explain to me why a device can run for 6.9 seconds and still complete the task?

Section 3.b wrote:The device must trip all 4 unmodified mousetraps within 1 minute to receive maximum points.

Section 3.i wrote:Timing will stop when the intended fourth mousetrap is tripped or when 60 seconds is reached. Actions occurring after 60 seconds will not be scored.

End of Section 4 wrote:Ties will be broken as follows: 1. Fewest penalty points; 2. Longest time of operation up to 60 seconds.


60 seconds is equal to 60 seconds. Even if it did say "whole seconds," 60 whole seconds is STILL equal to 60 seconds. That's simpler than math. The only place where the rules mention "whole seconds" is here:

Section 4.g wrote:2 points for each whole second the device operates up to task completion


But obviously, if it operates for longer than 60 seconds, there is no task completion, according to section 3.i. 1 minute is 60 seconds, not 60.9. I have no idea why the FAQ said what it did on February 2. Can anyone explain how a device can run for 60.9 seconds get the maximum score?


I'm not involved in the decision making but can explain (somewhat..)

Basically the goal is to run the machine as close to 60 seconds as possible while getting all of the other points. Somewhere along the line it was decided that, since 60.9 is still 60 "whole" seconds, actions occuring between 60.0 and 60.99 should still be scored. Add in another FAQ involving microcontrollers and suddenly many teams are running in that very close 1.0 second margin. Since reaction time is around 0.2 seconds (and varies widely) the problems with scoring occurred.

I'm sure it will all get worked out but until then, questions will continue...

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby acanoli » April 8th, 2010, 12:33 pm

Also, look at the excel score sheet on soinc. The formula for the time tiebreaker only works correctly for times less than or equal to 60 seconds. For example, for 60.9 seconds, it gives you 0.9 for the "deviation from 60 seconds" field for the tiebreaker. In other words, if you give it a number greater than 60, it starts going backwards. Obviously it isn't meant for values greater than 60. Just saying.

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby fleet130 » April 8th, 2010, 1:25 pm

Also, look at the excel score sheet on soinc.
Don't take information posted on the internet (even the event pages at soinc.org) as an extension of the rules. This information is developed by coaches, event supervisors and other people involved in Science Olympiad from all around the country. Sometimes it is from previous years when the rules were different. There is no guarantee it complies with the current rules 100%.

The only trusted resources for interpreting the rules are the current rules book and any clarifications from the organizing authority for the tournament you will compete in. I'm not saying the spreadsheet is ether wrong or right, just that unless someone of authority says it is right, you cannot trust it as a reference. The disclaimer on the top of every event page on http://soinc.org/ warns you of this. The author of the Excel spreadsheet may not have understood the scoring or may not be aware the formula is incorrect.
Information expressed here is solely the opinion of the author. Any similarity to that of the management or any official instrument is purely coincidental! Doing Science Olympiad since 1987!

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby acanoli » April 8th, 2010, 1:40 pm

Yeah, you're right. Sorry about that. Same deal with the FAQ. :?

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby haven chuck » April 9th, 2010, 6:18 am

Actually, the FAQ's are official. The FAQ page says - "These Official Rules Clarifications apply to all states and all tournaments and originate at the national level."
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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby fleet130 » April 9th, 2010, 8:56 am

Science Olympiad makes a distinction between "Official Rules Clarifications" and "FAQs" That's why they are on separate pages.
This appears on the top of the Rules Clarification page, but not on the Frequently Asked Questions page.
Official Rules Clarifications are made to clarify or correct the rules printed in the manuals. These Official Rules Clarifications apply to all states and all tournaments and originate at the national level. Click here to view Event FAQs or to Submit a Question .

Note: Even though the statement says the rules clarifications apply to other tournaments, there is no guarantee they will honor them.
Information expressed here is solely the opinion of the author. Any similarity to that of the management or any official instrument is purely coincidental! Doing Science Olympiad since 1987!

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Re: Junkyard Challenge B

Postby acanoli » April 13th, 2010, 8:16 am

A new rule clarification was posted yesterday.

Junkyard Challenge: Section 3.i. and 4.g. and 4. Ties, Seconds are recorded in "whole seconds" so, 59.5 would be recorded as 59. And, any time between 60.00-60.99 would be recorded as 60, after which actions are no longer scored (See the posted Junkyard FAQs). The 2nd Tiebreaker should read: Closest time of operation to 60 seconds" (4/12/10)


I guess that settles that.


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