National Qualification

Locked
User avatar
Deeisenberg
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 237
Joined: April 29th, 2007, 7:23 pm
Division: Grad
State: PA
Location: Stony Brook University
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: National Qualification

Post by Deeisenberg » February 23rd, 2010, 9:58 am

As it has been said countless times before, even if you think that individual qualification in any form is a good idea it is not practical. For one thing it is a bad idea, and it really goes against the spirit of olympiad. Also you people all forget that olympiad doesn't have an endless money pit they can delve into at any time. The venues that host olympiad cannot all take an enormous increase in the number of competitors. I mean even if it were practical scheduling would become an absolute nightmare, especially with any sort of combination of team and individual. The current system works, it is far better than any of the systems that have been proposed here, and it is far more practical.
Events: Herpetology, Fossils, Entomology, Rocks & Minerals, Ornithology, Ecology
Nationals 2008: 1st in Herpetology
Nationals 2009: 1st in Herpetology, 2nd in Fossils

Harriton Class of 2010

User avatar
E Edgar
Member
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: March 17th, 2008, 3:21 pm
Division: Grad
State: IN
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: National Qualification

Post by E Edgar » February 24th, 2010, 7:30 am

Ok, here is an interesting idea (that has probably been proposed before) which would not be very different from the current system and (I think) significantly better.

1) Regional and State tournaments are run exactly the same as before
2) At nationals, every State is guaranteed 1 team
3) The top few States (based on enrollment) automatically get an extra team thus increasing the number of teams to 50
4a) The 10 extra slots are chosen at a national wildcard tournament where each state sends one team.
or
4b) There are 5 region tournaments (like midwest, central, west coast, south, east coast) where each tournament sends the top 2 schools to nationals


The wildcard idea is used before State in Indiana and as far as I know it works really well.
My 2010 National Results
Astronomy: 2nd
Physics Lab: 2nd
Technical Problem Solving: 6th
Fossils: 8th

User avatar
blue cobra
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 417
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 6:10 pm
Division: Grad
State: NY
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: National Qualification

Post by blue cobra » February 24th, 2010, 12:00 pm

Sounds interesting, but I think money would become a serious issue. Getting a venue and buying medals for several more multi-state competitions is going to cost a fair bit, not to mention teams getting to the competition. I think the current system is the best in practicality.
In full color since 2006

User avatar
E Edgar
Member
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: March 17th, 2008, 3:21 pm
Division: Grad
State: IN
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: National Qualification

Post by E Edgar » February 24th, 2010, 2:24 pm

blue cobra wrote:Sounds interesting, but I think money would become a serious issue. Getting a venue and buying medals for several more multi-state competitions is going to cost a fair bit
As I understand it, many schools are queuing up to hold the national tournament so I would expect they would be interested in holding a region tournament. Also a region tournament would not be too far from any state in the region.
My 2010 National Results
Astronomy: 2nd
Physics Lab: 2nd
Technical Problem Solving: 6th
Fossils: 8th

User avatar
zyzzyva980
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 1539
Joined: November 18th, 2009, 12:59 pm
Division: Grad
State: IA
Location: Des Moines
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: National Qualification

Post by zyzzyva980 » February 24th, 2010, 7:19 pm

But what about the teams? Some teams would only have enough money for one National trip, if there was a Wild-Card round they wouldn't make it to Nats even if they won. It costs a lot of money just for a state in a large state such as say... Kansas (wonder why I picked that one) and the regions you suggested are very broad.
Olathe North HS, 2011-2013 | National Runner-Up, Sounds of Music (2012)
Never lose the joy of competing in the pursuit of winning

Resources
Site Help: FAQ & IRC
Event Help: [wiki][/wiki] & Image Gallery
Social Networks: scioly.org on Facebook & Twitter

User avatar
3slh9
Coach
Coach
Posts: 91
Joined: January 22nd, 2010, 11:06 am
Division: C
State: KS
Location: Olathe North
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: National Qualification

Post by 3slh9 » February 25th, 2010, 4:50 am

For costs, you have to consider hotels, transportation, food, etc. Even for our state, we have to spend the night. For the 2 days it costs our school around $2500 and that is with splitting the cost of the bus with another school. Nationals is even more. I don't know if you have heard about the economy lately but when people don't have jobs and school budgets around the country are getting cut, $2500 is a lot. It also isn't fair to pass that cost onto the team members because most families don't have that kind of extra money hanging around and it would immediately eliminate anyone in a lower income area.

User avatar
blue cobra
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 417
Joined: April 9th, 2009, 6:10 pm
Division: Grad
State: NY
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: National Qualification

Post by blue cobra » February 26th, 2010, 1:56 pm

Yup, I wouldn't be surprised if next year we don't have a Sci Oly team (livid, but not surprised). If we had to go to an extra tournament, I not sure we'd be able to. And I know I don't have enough money to support myself; I can hardly afford to build my events. As I've mentioned before, I think the current system isn't perfect, but it's the best option.
In full color since 2006

User avatar
E Edgar
Member
Member
Posts: 89
Joined: March 17th, 2008, 3:21 pm
Division: Grad
State: IN
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: National Qualification

Post by E Edgar » February 26th, 2010, 6:12 pm

blue cobra wrote:If we had to go to an extra tournament
But look, you wouldn't HAVE to go to this competition: it's only for nationals qualification. Also, while many teams do have fund-raising issues, my experience is that those teams that are good enough to make it to nationals generally do not.
3slh9 wrote:it also isn't fair to pass that cost onto the team members because most families don't have that kind of extra money hanging around
But again, that isn't it at all. This would be an OPTIONAL tournament that only the most committed teams would even qualify for. In my experience these types of teams would jump at an extra opportunity to qualify for nationals.


I am aware of the fact the Science Olympiad would be extremely hesitant to change their tournament system (and not without reason) but I'm not sure these arguments really make a lot of sense.
My 2010 National Results
Astronomy: 2nd
Physics Lab: 2nd
Technical Problem Solving: 6th
Fossils: 8th

User avatar
zyzzyva980
Admin Emeritus
Admin Emeritus
Posts: 1539
Joined: November 18th, 2009, 12:59 pm
Division: Grad
State: IA
Location: Des Moines
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0
Contact:

Re: National Qualification

Post by zyzzyva980 » February 26th, 2010, 6:23 pm

Our team is good enough for nationals. That's the one that posted three posts up. No, blue cobra's right, this is the most efficient way. It's not perfect, but it's the best option.
Olathe North HS, 2011-2013 | National Runner-Up, Sounds of Music (2012)
Never lose the joy of competing in the pursuit of winning

Resources
Site Help: FAQ & IRC
Event Help: [wiki][/wiki] & Image Gallery
Social Networks: scioly.org on Facebook & Twitter

User avatar
Phenylethylamine
Exalted Member
Exalted Member
Posts: 1075
Joined: January 8th, 2009, 4:47 pm
Division: Grad
State: MA
Location: Harvard University
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: National Qualification

Post by Phenylethylamine » February 28th, 2010, 8:28 am

E Edgar wrote:
blue cobra wrote:If we had to go to an extra tournament
But look, you wouldn't HAVE to go to this competition: it's only for nationals qualification. Also, while many teams do have fund-raising issues, my experience is that those teams that are good enough to make it to nationals generally do not.
3slh9 wrote:it also isn't fair to pass that cost onto the team members because most families don't have that kind of extra money hanging around
But again, that isn't it at all. This would be an OPTIONAL tournament that only the most committed teams would even qualify for. In my experience these types of teams would jump at an extra opportunity to qualify for nationals.


I am aware of the fact the Science Olympiad would be extremely hesitant to change their tournament system (and not without reason) but I'm not sure these arguments really make a lot of sense.
Why do you assume that committed teams wouldn't have any issues with lack of funds? Commitment isn't created by affluence, and school funds for teams are often decided by administrators who don't care how committed the team is, and simply think of it as another club. Even in my school district, which is far from lacking in funds, it's like pulling teeth to get money for competitions from the district (keep in mind that a B and C division team from our district went to nationals last year, so this is definitely a "committed" team we're talking about).
Let me put it this way: saying "you wouldn't HAVE to go to this competition: it's only for nationals qualification." is like telling a sports team, "you don't HAVE to go to the playoffs: that's just for qualifying for the finals." It's more than a little condescending. There are many national-level teams that have difficulties with fundraising.
If such a tournament were to exist, it would offer teams with more access to funds an extra chance to qualify for nationals over other teams that didn't have the money to compete. This is clearly unfair- Science Olympiad is not meant to revolve around socioeconomic status of the region from which a team originates. Even within a given school, some of the cost would most likely be passed onto the students' families, creating a socioeconomic bias within the team based on who could pay and who couldn't.
Protein Modeling Event Supervisor 2015
MA State Science Olympiad Tournament
MIT Invitational Tournament
--
Ward Melville High School Science Olympiad 2010-2012
Paul J Gelinas JHS Science Olympiad 2007-2009

Locked

Return to “2010 Nationals”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest