2011-2012 Rules

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wlsguy
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by wlsguy »

Since the key to a successful helicopter is weight management, how about adding a bonus for extra removeable weight carried.
The weight would need to be both removable, not contribute to the lift of the helicopter (like an extra rotor), and weighed after the flights
Maybe something like + 10% to the flight time for each full gram carried above the minimum weight up to maximum of +30%.
If your helicopter is just overweight, it wouldn't count as a bonus because it is not removable.

Just a thought to mix it up next year.
Thanks
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by calgoddard »

The previous post stated: "[s]ince the key to a successful helicopter is weight management."

I disagree.

The Helicopters event is different than Wright Stuff. For a well-built helicopter, the descent portion of the flight is a relatively low portion of the flight, and it is only during
this time that the overall weight of the helicopter has a significant impact on the total flight duration. So long as the helicopter climbs all the way to the ceiling, the weight is not much of a factor in overall flight duration, although extra weight will cause the helicopter to climb more slowly. When the helicipter is pinned to the ceiling, the weight of the helicopter doesn't matter much. The weight of the helicopter does determine when the helicopter will first "detach" from the ceiling, however, total rubber winds, launch torque and rubber quality can make much more of a difference in regard to when the helicopter detaches from the ceiling than whether the helicopter weighs 4.0 grams or 4.5 grams, for example.

In my opinion, there are other factors that are also "key" to long flight duration of a SciOly helicopter, such as the pitch and configuration of the rotors. This event can be won with a 5.0 gram helicopter. It is still, however, better to have a helicopter that is close to the 4.0 gram minimum weight.

Now, turning to the proposed removable weight bonus, you need to look at any proposed rule change from the standpoint of the added burdens it places on the event supervisor at the competition. If I were performing that task, I would much prefer to inspect a helicopter for compliance with the building specs, review flight logs and then time and record two flights. The complications of recording added payload weights and then factoring these into the score sheets that have to be turned in at the end of the competition would make the event supervisor's job more difficult without any added learning benefit on the student side.

Many competitors cannot even get a helicopter to fly more than 30 seconds. Adding a payload bonus may distract students from concentrating on improving the flight time of their "unburdened" helicopters and/or further extend the advantage of students who can already get flight times over one minute.
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by illusionist »

Here is a national clarification regarding tethers:


The current rules do no allow tethering. Anything physically attached to the
helicopter would be considered a constituent part of the helicopter and if
the tether touches the ground, it would never be considered to be aloft (with
the current wording).

The original question is included for your records; there is no need to
respond unless you feel there is an error.
=========================================================
ORIGINAL MESSAGE:

Are competitors allowed to tether their helicopters, as to control the height
of the flight? Competitors will not be touching the tether at anytime.

Helicopters

(section: 3 / paragraph: / sub-paragraph: / line: N/A)
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by thewinner »

calgoddard wrote:The previous post stated: "[s]ince the key to a successful helicopter is weight management."

I disagree.

The Helicopters event is different than Wright Stuff. For a well-built helicopter, the descent portion of the flight is a relatively low portion of the flight, and it is only during this time that the overall weight of the helicopter has a significant impact on the total flight duration.
And I disagree with that. Weight has a HUGE effect on ALL the stages of your helicopter's flight. More weight means it will require more lift, which means it will require more torque, so the rubber band will run out of power faster. As little as 0.1 gram extra can have around a 5 second effect on your flight time.
I win.
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by aubrey048 »

thewinner wrote:
calgoddard wrote:The previous post stated: "[s]ince the key to a successful helicopter is weight management."

I disagree.

The Helicopters event is different than Wright Stuff. For a well-built helicopter, the descent portion of the flight is a relatively low portion of the flight, and it is only during this time that the overall weight of the helicopter has a significant impact on the total flight duration.
And I disagree with that. Weight has a HUGE effect on ALL the stages of your helicopter's flight. More weight means it will require more lift, which means it will require more torque, so the rubber band will run out of power faster. As little as 0.1 gram extra can have around a 5 second effect on your flight time.
But sometimes helicopters defy the odds, either due to a good design or exceptional materials. My 8-ish gram helicopter flew quite aggressively, reached times of about 45-50 seconds. As usual, it all depends.
Plotting the function of the universe for efficiency without your permission.

Projected 2011-2012 Events: Anatomy, Microbe Mission, Disease Detectives, Tower, Optics, Helicopter.
Past Events: Anatomy (7th), Helicopter (6th), Mission Possible (1st), Write It Do It (4th, 8th), Ornithology (5th).
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by jarrred_1415 »

wlsguy wrote:Since the key to a successful helicopter is weight management, how about adding a bonus for extra removeable weight carried.
The weight would need to be both removable, not contribute to the lift of the helicopter (like an extra rotor), and weighed after the flights
Maybe something like + 10% to the flight time for each full gram carried above the minimum weight up to maximum of +30%.
If your helicopter is just overweight, it wouldn't count as a bonus because it is not removable.

Just a thought to mix it up next year.
Thanks
Great idea!!!!!
adds a extra dimension to the event for very minimal extra effort by the event supervisor.

i think adding a minimum required flight time would also be helpful so that you prevent someone from having a 10 second flight with a HUGE weight so that it keeps the spirit of the rules intact.
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by jander14indoor »

There's been much discussion on whether we should allow the upper rotor to stop because of how hard it is to judge if the helicopter is self supporting when potentially way overhead. On another list we've tried to figure out if it was even realistic to expect longer flights in this condition or if it was only possible if the stopped top rotor was in fact helping hold the copter to the ceiling by friction or whatever.

One solution proposed was tethers.

How about this idea? Give a significant bonus for no touch flights. No touch could be any part of the ceiling, or include ANYTHING (walls speakers, wires, basketball supports, whatever) between when the copter left the competitors hands and when it hits the floor. And it has to hit the floor, not hang up someplace else. Something large enough to offset the stopped rotor flight benefit. That would keep the free flight aspect, avoid the complication of tether, and really pay the teams who've dialed in their copters.

Thoughts, problems, likes, dislikes?

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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by wlsguy »

Competitive "No touch flights" are impossible for helicopters.
If such a bonus existed, it would never result in a winner (even if it was 2 or 3 times the flight duration).

The torque curve of the rubber motor is too great and the lift generated by the rotors is too low.
Also, all of the issues with event location (that are beyond the control of most event supervisors) would greatly play into the event.

Friction is not a force that can be used to hold 2 objects together unless they are "stuck" Once the torque falls sufficently, the helicopter will come down unless it is stuck.
If a team gets lucky and has the rotor get stuck and then come loose, good for them. Luck is part of every event in Science Olympiad.

As far as top rotor stoppage, it is easy to resolve, use 2 stopwatches.
Start both at the same time (when the helicopter is released).
Stop the first one when the top rotor stops.
Stop the 2nd if the copter reaches the ground.
If the helicopter is stuck, use the first time, otherwise use the 2nd time.
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by chalker7 »

That's not necessarily true. The winning flight at nationals last year never made it above 30 feet, yet still exceeded 2 minutes. It hovered 50 feet below the ceiling as compared to other teams that were getting stuck at 80 feet.
However, I acknowledge that it was a significant exception and yes, the torque curve for rubber motors makes hovering extremely difficult (certainly substantially more difficult than maintaining an even cruise with a Wright Stuff plane).
National event supervisor - Wright Stuff, Helicopters
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wlsguy
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by wlsguy »

ok,
maybe I shouldn't have said impossible but, unless you have a ceiling height like the Armory (at 80'), "no touch" flights will not be competitive.
This year I have seen several flights over 2 minutes and none of them were "no touch".
I think the best no touch flight I have seen this year was probably in the 20~30 second range.
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