2011-2012 Rules

jander14indoor
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by jander14indoor » May 2nd, 2011, 1:28 pm

Just to throw a wrench into the discussion. The MI state contest was flown in a site with a relatively smooth acoustical tile ceiling.

Most of the top six teams I reported times for in the duration string (all above 2 minutes) had helicopters with a wood pin on top. They flew to the ceiling, top rotor spun nicely and copter sat on ceiling for a time, then descended normally.

The fifth place team didn't have a spike, its rotor stopped for a while and then the copter descended normally. No unusually long flight.

This is only one example, but I still don't think a purely aerodynamically supported flight will get a significantly different time, both rotors turning, or one rotor stopped.

I'm sorry, but I think the event supervisor in the case related by eta150 just plain got it wrong. Clearly wrong interpretation of the rules as written to avoid making a hard decision and nothing more. Just my opinion, but there it is.

Now, can the wording be improved, still not sure of that.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI

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eta150
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by eta150 » May 3rd, 2011, 11:25 am

I agree the the rules probably can't be improved...I want my wright stuff back
Also, jander, when you say the judge got it wrong, do you mean it should have counted? Or was the appeal correct?
Last edited by eta150 on May 3rd, 2011, 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by chalker7 » May 3rd, 2011, 12:24 pm

eta150 wrote:I agree the the rules probably can't be improved...I want my wright stuff back
Also, when you say the judge got it wrong, do you mean it should have counted? Or was the appeal correct?
Don't interpret this as an official ruling, since this is just an unofficial forum, I didn't see the flight in persion, etc. However, if I were the judge and was timing this flight, I would have probably stopped time whenever I determined the helicopter got stuck (ie the rotors stopped supporting the weight of the helicopter). You haven't provided details of the flight, but the score for this flight would have been some time between 12 minutes and 0 (but definitely neither of those extremes). Based upon normal helicopter performance I would guess something between 15 and 90 seconds, but really those are numbers without much basis.
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jander14indoor
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by jander14indoor » May 3rd, 2011, 2:39 pm

eta150 wrote:I agree the the rules probably can't be improved...I want my wright stuff back
Also, when you say the judge got it wrong, do you mean it should have counted? Or was the appeal correct?
Wright Stuff will be back someday, hope its in time for you to compete again.

As to the judge, again, JUST OPINION, they should have made individual decisions on when the flight ended, not some arbitrary addition to the rules to 'prevent controversy'. Clearly to me not what the rules intend (of course that's why the wording is being criticized!). So my point was they should never have recorded a 12 minute flight time in the first place!

Now, as to the appeal cancelling that time, for that I'm going to take the easy way out and not say it was wrong or right. Appeals can turn on a lot of factors. Having been on the appeal committee side, I'm not going to second guess them as I don't have the facts they reviewed (and I doubt you do either).

SIDE DIGRESSION on how the appeals process works. Example, at one event I judged the appeal for, the track was laid out slightly wrong, but it was noticed by the second team. The first was still available, had time to rerun. So the correction was made, those teams reran and the competition continued. Easy right. Now, lets find this out say halfway through the day with 48 teams. Frankly, if the event supervisor corrected the issue at that point it is likely the event would be thrown out as it would be practically impossible to get 24 teams back to rerun and the result would not be equally unfair to all. If the event supervisor didn't correct the track, but ran the rest of the day with it wrong, we'd probably let the results stand as everyone had the same challenge at least, even if it was a little unexpected. Just one case where for the same fundamental error, different details might result in different rulings.

Jeff Anderson
Livonia, MI

wlsguy
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by wlsguy » May 3rd, 2011, 5:17 pm

chalker7 wrote: ... Does anyone have any suggestions for a more clear and robust definition of the end of a flight (with particular emphasis on when timing should stop if a helicopter gets stuck on the ceiling)?
So, does anyone have any better idea to determine a more clear and less judgmental "end of flight" than the one I proposed earlier:

i.e. timing would start when the helicopter is launched and end when
1) it comes to rest on the ground (or table, spectator, bleachers or object in contact with the ground. i.e. not the building, basketball hoop, etc)
2) when the students want to give up waiting and stop the flight.
3) when both rotors stop turning

If the helicopter does not reach the ground (or table, spectator, bleachers or object in contact with the ground. i.e. not the building, basketball hoop, etc)
then the time of the flight is zero. Teams who do not have a successful flight would receive particpation points only

Obviously each team would need to determine the amount of risk they would be willing to take. Some would fly in the safe area of the ceiling, some would hope to find a crack and hope it comes out, others would choose to fly no touch (or even using an optional tether). In all cases, the students would have control of their own destiny.

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Littleboy
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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by Littleboy » May 3rd, 2011, 5:21 pm

Make timing stop if it has contact with anything

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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by thewinner » May 11th, 2011, 1:42 pm

Littleboy wrote:Make timing stop if it has contact with anything
...that may not work out so well. It is very hard to achieve any significant cruise period with a helicopter, since it involves so much testing and optimization of different variables such as rotor size, rubber band size, winds, etc., so there would be an unfair advantage for the teams which have more experience.
I win.

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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by wlsguy » May 13th, 2011, 5:05 pm

More thoughts for next year.

How about getting rid of the "rigid plastic" prohibition and just require students to build the rotor blades themselves (which would prohibit commercial propellers).
It would help some of the teams by allowing them to use plastic cups for the blades (thereby reducing cost and complexity). It might also results in more "successful" helicopters.

Anyway, just a thought.....

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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by thedoctor » May 14th, 2011, 4:21 pm

When are the 2011-2012 rules expected to be released?

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Re: 2011-2012 Rules

Post by chalker7 » May 14th, 2011, 5:10 pm

thedoctor wrote:When are the 2011-2012 rules expected to be released?
Sometime in the fall, normally late September/early October.
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