New York 2011

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Re: New York 2011

Post by Flavorflav » March 20th, 2011, 6:03 pm

personasaurus rex wrote:
Primate wrote:I hear so much about Harold it's ridiculous. I really wish the system had more transparency.
Amen to that. I wish they would just give us our tests back afterwards like invitationals. What could hurt in that?
That there is a good reason for. Sometimes event writers flake out without warning, leaving a tournament coordinator without an event that they expected. If last year's have not been released, something can be whipped together at the last minute. If you've released them, you're out of luck. There is no good reason to throw out the tests so quickly, though, except the convenience of the coordinator. Of course, if a check on Ecology did reveal a mistake, WM would want a recheck on their scores on Technical and Disease, I bet. There does eventually have to be an end to the process.

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Re: New York 2011

Post by personasaurus rex » March 20th, 2011, 6:06 pm

Flavorflav wrote: That there is a good reason for. Sometimes event writers flake out without warning, leaving a tournament coordinator without an event that they expected. If last year's have not been released, something can be whipped together at the last minute. If you've released them, you're out of luck. There is no good reason to throw out the tests so quickly, though, except the convenience of the coordinator. Of course, if a check on Ecology did reveal a mistake, WM would want a recheck on their scores on Technical and Disease, I bet. There does eventually have to be an end to the process.
I guess that's true too.
And just wondering, if there did turn out to be a mistake in the ecology grading, would they force WM to return their trophy? That seems a tad too harsh haha. Honestly, if I qualified for nats through score recheck, I'd feel bad lol
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Re: New York 2011

Post by quizbowl » March 20th, 2011, 6:29 pm

I looked at the state rules, and they only keep the tests for 2 hours. Why is that? If the results are final the next day, they should be subject to any appeals made. Some issues only come up after the scores are revealed - that is more than 2 hours for most events. Heck, its more than a day for the friday events. This happens way too often, and Miller does nothing about it. There needs to be a change, to ensure that incidents like this can be resolved in the future and a precedent to be set on how a state tournament should be run.
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Re: New York 2011

Post by personasaurus rex » March 20th, 2011, 6:34 pm

He just bothers me when he mumbles and no one understands him lol.
and he always say our name wrong. Spack. Like back. not that complicated.... =P
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Re: New York 2011

Post by winneratlife » March 20th, 2011, 6:34 pm

quizbowl wrote:
Teammate wrote:First of all, we aren't complaining because we did poorly. This is the best our team has done in years. We aren't appealing because we did poorly in an event that we usually do well in, but because we believe that a grading error based on a minor mistake on the test may have compromised our exam. In any case, we believe that the whole event should probably just be rescored seeing as the placement should be based on the knowledge of the event, and not on petty printing mistakes. If the rescoring of this one event could mean that our school really did qualify for nationals, then as of now, New York could potentially be sending the wrong teams to represent the state, when they really should be sending the two best teams. If they rescore it and we still got 33rd, then atleast we'd understand, but there's no knowing until something is done about this.
Word to yo mama.
So, you're going to just go up to the elated 2nd placers, smack them, and be like "Guess what, you just got screwed?"

If you allow rescoring, then you either send 3 or 4 teams, or you get stuck telling a team that deserved to go that they can't. The judges don't want to do any of those, so they just don't rescore to avoid the whole problem in the first place. If you were a judge, what would you do? Objectively. Would you really be willing to rescore, find out you screwed up, and tell 2nd place they have to give their stuff back and you're revoking their nats trip?

Now what if you were the 2nd place team?

Stop putting yourself at the center of the universe and look at it from everybody's perspective. Rescoring it only really helps you.

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Re: New York 2011

Post by zyzzyva980 » March 20th, 2011, 6:41 pm

I do agree with quiz that the tests should be scored as accurately as possible. And sadly, this may mean changing teams that go to nationals. HOWEVER, looking at the evidence given over chat, it seems that the main argument quizbowl is claiming is that he wasn't sure how to number the test, but it appears the event coordinator gave perfectly clear instructions. Clarification could have been asked for but wasn't pursued to the necessary extent. I can't see this appeal holding up. It's a minor error, but it's still part of the event, and I'm sorry quizbowl, I know it sucks, but that's just the way it is. Be proud of how you did, you did great! Don't let it get you down and channel your disappointment into doing better next year.
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Re: New York 2011

Post by FueL » March 20th, 2011, 6:45 pm

personasaurus rex wrote:And just wondering, if there did turn out to be a mistake in the ecology grading, would they force WM to return their trophy? That seems a tad too harsh haha. Honestly, if I qualified for nats through score recheck, I'd feel bad lol
Yes, they would. We had a less serious issue last year at regionals where they switched our A team's SumoBot score (1st) with our C team's, who didn't do Sumo at all. At the awards ceremony we were called for third, but someone noticed the mix up on the score sheet. The team that had gotten second was just getting on their bus to leave when our coaches found them to exchange trophies. :|
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Re: New York 2011

Post by quizbowl » March 20th, 2011, 6:48 pm

zyzzyva98 wrote:I do agree with quiz that the tests should be scored as accurately as possible. And sadly, this may mean changing teams that go to nationals. HOWEVER, looking at the evidence given over chat, it seems that the main argument quizbowl is claiming is that he wasn't sure how to number the test, but it appears the event coordinator gave perfectly clear instructions. Clarification could have been asked for but wasn't pursued to the necessary extent. I can't see this appeal holding up. It's a minor error, but it's still part of the event, and I'm sorry quizbowl, I know it sucks, but that's just the way it is. Be proud of how you did, you did great! Don't let it get you down and channel your disappointment into doing better next year.
First of all, I agree with you that the tests should be rescored. If not, the real winners might not be awarded what they deserve. However, I never mentioned on chat that I did in fact ask for a clarification. When responded to, the coordinator merely repeated what he stated and would not give more information. We asked again, but he answered another question instead of ours and we never had a chance to talk to him (the test was long enough - if we didn't start, we'd have not finished). If the proctor had been more clear, or more willing to explain it, this might have been avoided.
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Re: New York 2011

Post by quizbowl » March 20th, 2011, 7:38 pm

double post (sorry) but teammate has something to say:
Teammate wrote:We understand that there's little that can be done at this point and all we can do now is to work harder for next year. We didn't mean to get everyone all worked up about this and we don't want to come across as such a self centered team (though every team is), but it really was a petty reason to lose. NYS is probably the hardest state to get to nationals from so you can't help but to be upset for being so close. All teams can obviously empathize with each other, we've all been there before. Nobody ever wants to win based on an appeal or by booting out another team-- just because it doesn't feel the same, but at some point you start to wonder whether it's a matter of hurting the other team's feelings or doing what's right. The way i feel is, that when it comes to nationals, rescoring shouldn't be taken lightly and should not be disregarded based on inconveniences, especially when the margin between national qualifying teams is so slim. But anyways, that's all I have to say...nothing is probably going to be done about this and all we can do is to accept that New York is still being represented by two excellent teams.
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Re: New York 2011

Post by Phenylethylamine » March 20th, 2011, 7:46 pm

Flavorflav wrote:Of course, if a check on Ecology did reveal a mistake, WM would want a recheck on their scores on Technical and Disease, I bet. There does eventually have to be an end to the process.
Heh, maybe Disease, but not Technical. We didn't expect to do particularly well- we were kind of thrown on the event at the last minute- so it's easy to see how we could have gotten 30th there.

The one event that we did have a problem with- not in scoring, but in setup- was Mission. I understand that it might be difficult to orchestrate 30-minute setup times for all the teams on the day of competition, but it's not reasonable, with such a volatile event, to expect teams to set up the night before and then give them only five minutes the next day. As far as I can tell, the rules don't account for this. Splitting the time like this adds unnecessary stress, as well as presenting actual logistical problems- electrical wiring can't be left to run all night, and so on. We would almost certainly have done better than 23rd without the fractured setup time; in the chaos of the five-minute final setup, an alligator clip was left undone, and some of our electrically powered steps didn't run.
However, technically this was the same for all teams, so there's not really any grounds for appeal.

Also, yes, there are probably scoring errors that decrease good teams' scores. But you have to assume that there's a roughly equal probability of a scoring error that increases a given team's score, so on the whole, averaged out over many years of competition, all the scoring errors balance out. I know that's neither comforting nor helpful, but it does mean that, practically speaking, Harold Miller's lack of transparency isn't hurting anyone in the long run.
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