New York 2014

Locked
Atomicbob11
Member
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: January 21st, 2014, 6:26 pm
Division: Grad
State: PA
Location: Penn State University
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by Atomicbob11 » March 11th, 2014, 7:39 pm

This is just so disappointing. I have signed the petition myself, along with the other person from my team who has an account on the forums, but I have a feeling that our efforts will be futile for WM. If anything, i'm hoping that the petition has an effect for later years. Though I really have no good solution for this moral dilemma, because it is a very complex one, I know that it sucks.

Coming from a team that often goes to states in PA, but never makes nationals, and is still a somewhat newer team, not very new though, it means a lot just alone to go to states, and it is only a dream to ever make it to nationals. But is PA, so competition is always very intense.

I can only imagine how difficult it would be, for a team that makes nationals basically every year, and for kids who work their rear off every day, to suddenly just get shut down. I understand the feeling of working long hours many days after school, and studying for many hours outside of school, to want to do well, in the hopes to bring pride to myself, my school, and to possibly have a chance of doing better than the year before. WM probably has put so much work into their events, and to have that just stripped away, is just heartbreaking, and I hope that something that be figured out, at least to some extent.

I can only imagine the heartbreak if I found out my team couldn't compete at states, even when we've never been to nationals. But being one of the best teams in the nation, and working to try and do better than you did last year, and live up to the history and pride that you have brought to your team and school, and having that all taken away, is just heartbreaking.
Hard Work may pay off in the long run, but Laziness pays off now.
Therefore, Studying for SciOly is the best type of Procrastination.

Atomicbob11
Member
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: January 21st, 2014, 6:26 pm
Division: Grad
State: PA
Location: Penn State University
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by Atomicbob11 » March 11th, 2014, 7:43 pm

Gemma W wrote:
blockhead wrote:The current situation can be described as a moral dilemma. Allowing WM to compete entails giving them an exception to the rule that late registration disqualifies a team. Allowing an exception can have consequences. It may make it more likely that other teams miss the deadline by a day or two. On the other hand, strict adherence to the rules results in a devastating outcome for 15 kids hard working dedicated students who have done nothing wrong. It is the kind of disappointment that can have a lasting impact-it may color their choices to participate in future academic activities. The result is also a violation of trust by adults.

People deal with moral dilemmas in different ways. One way (conventional) to deal with moral dilemmas is to always stick to the rules without questioning the fairness or appropriateness of doing so. In this case, the rule is that the team can't go and the impact on the kids or the fact that the consequence is way out of proportion to the infraction is not even considered. Another approach to moral reasoning involves carefully and thoughtfully considering universal ethical principles. People who approach (post conventional) problems in this manner consider laws as they pertain to larger principles such as justice and upholding social order, protecting human rights. For these people, rules are not to be blindly followed but must be considered in light of the context; decisions involve carefully weighing the pros/cons to each action and then taking the action that seems to uphold the highest value.

Hopefully the administrators will carefully consider the principles involved and will make a decision that upholds the higher value-to avoid taking an action that will likely have a devastating impact on a group of hard working students who did nothing wrong.
I agree with what you guys are saying, and I fully support it. I think the hardest thing for them will be how to organize a new rule of some sort so that us high schoolers and middle schoolers don't get penalized for actions that are not our own.

I was think that maybe some sort of financial free, a late fee perhaps, could be a good way of doing it. One that is substantial enough, not to so bad that it makes it hard for teams. Also the possibility of possibly a points addition, making it tougher for them to make nationals, but that also seems a little morally tough.

Thinking of a punishment that possibly affects the coaches and school or administration, but not the kids themselves, who literally do nothing but work to do well.
I'm not sure that you understand exactly what change we're trying to make. We do not want them to make an exception for us. We want the rule to change unequivocally for all future tournaments. This is not only about the errors that led to our own expulsion, it is about the inherent problems in the rules. This harsh penalty goes completely against Science Olympiad's mission statement, which is to spread the love of science to students. Shutting kids out for no fault of their own is clearly not doing that. I appreciate your support, but I want it to be clear that while we are devastated by our own loss, we feel it is more important that no other team ever go through this again.
Last edited by Atomicbob11 on March 11th, 2014, 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hard Work may pay off in the long run, but Laziness pays off now.
Therefore, Studying for SciOly is the best type of Procrastination.

User avatar
FueL
Member
Member
Posts: 410
Joined: March 7th, 2010, 12:53 pm
Division: C
State: NY
Location: WMHS
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by FueL » March 11th, 2014, 7:44 pm

Atomicbob11 wrote:This is just so disappointing. I have signed the petition myself, along with the other person from my team who has an account on the forums, but I have a feeling that our efforts will be futile for WM. If anything, i'm hoping that the petition has an effect for later years. Though I really have no good solution for this moral dilemma, because it is a very complex one, I know that it sucks.

Coming from a team that often goes to states in PA, but never makes nationals, and is still a somewhat newer team, not very new though, it means a lot just alone to go to states, and it is only a dream to ever make it to nationals. But is PA, so competition is always very intense.

I can only imagine how difficult it would be, for a team that makes nationals basically every year, and for kids who work their rear off every day, to suddenly just get shut down. I understand the feeling of working long hours many days after school, and studying for many hours outside of school, to want to do well, in the hopes to bring pride to myself, my school, and to possibly have a chance of doing better than the year before. WM probably has put so much work into their events, and to have that just stripped away, is just heartbreaking, and I hope that something that be figured out, at least to some extent.

I can only imagine the heartbreak if I found out my team couldn't compete at states, even when we've never been to nationals. But being one of the best teams in the nation, and working to try and do better than you did last year, and live up to the history and pride that you have brought to your team and school, and having that all taken away, is just heartbreaking.
Thank you! At this point, we really only hope we can make a change for the future, and maybe get people to think about all the great things SciO stands for and that, most of the time, we take for granted.

It really doesn't matter whether we've made nationals before or not; it's all about the hard work and dedication you've put into this competition, and excelling in science.
ornithology, forestry, entomology, triple E, green generation, water quality, dynamic planet (lakes & rivers), awesome aquifers, meteorology, robot arm, write it do it. :)
A cone of depression occurs when you drop your scoop of ice cream on the ground on a hot summer day.

User avatar
FueL
Member
Member
Posts: 410
Joined: March 7th, 2010, 12:53 pm
Division: C
State: NY
Location: WMHS
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by FueL » March 11th, 2014, 7:50 pm

Sorry for the double post, but since the actual tournament is coming up soon, maybe it would be better if we didn't clutter this thread and instead move the current discussion to this thread.
ornithology, forestry, entomology, triple E, green generation, water quality, dynamic planet (lakes & rivers), awesome aquifers, meteorology, robot arm, write it do it. :)
A cone of depression occurs when you drop your scoop of ice cream on the ground on a hot summer day.

Atomicbob11
Member
Member
Posts: 20
Joined: January 21st, 2014, 6:26 pm
Division: Grad
State: PA
Location: Penn State University
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by Atomicbob11 » March 11th, 2014, 8:08 pm

Just as a reminder, there are 2 petitions going around for the WM situation. One is just the forums - [ https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1xr-j6G ... Q/viewform ], and another is for anyone to sign their actual name [ http://jakewelde.com/petition ].
Hard Work may pay off in the long run, but Laziness pays off now.
Therefore, Studying for SciOly is the best type of Procrastination.

blockhead
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: February 11th, 2013, 2:51 am
Division: Grad
State: NY
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by blockhead » March 12th, 2014, 7:03 am

Gemma W. I understand very clearly. Agree with your ultimate goal.It would be great If the board can change the rules a few days before States. Even if that is not possible, they could take a more thoughtful approach to the way they make decisions. Few adults in important jobs stick to rules when sticking to rules violates more important principals.

User avatar
caseyotis
Member
Member
Posts: 680
Joined: October 25th, 2012, 7:53 pm
Division: C
State: NY
Location: Ithaca, NY, studying.
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by caseyotis » March 12th, 2014, 10:36 am

blockhead wrote:The current situation can be described as a moral dilemma. Allowing WM to compete entails giving them an exception to the rule that late registration disqualifies a team. Allowing an exception can have consequences. It may make it more likely that other teams miss the deadline by a day or two. On the other hand, strict adherence to the rules results in a devastating outcome for 15 kids hard working dedicated students who have done nothing wrong. It is the kind of disappointment that can have a lasting impact-it may color their choices to participate in future academic activities. The result is also a violation of trust by adults.

People deal with moral dilemmas in different ways. One way (conventional) to deal with moral dilemmas is to always stick to the rules without questioning the fairness or appropriateness of doing so. In this case, the rule is that the team can't go and the impact on the kids or the fact that the consequence is way out of proportion to the infraction is not even considered. Another approach to moral reasoning involves carefully and thoughtfully considering universal ethical principles. People who approach (post conventional) problems in this manner consider laws as they pertain to larger principles such as justice and upholding social order, protecting human rights. For these people, rules are not to be blindly followed but must be considered in light of the context; decisions involve carefully weighing the pros/cons to each action and then taking the action that seems to uphold the highest value.

Hopefully the administrators will carefully consider the principles involved and will make a decision that upholds the higher value-to avoid taking an action that will likely have a devastating impact on a group of hard working students who did nothing wrong.
The difference is that WM should have gotten the registration in on time, but Mr. Miller made a mistake and is punishing the team for that. There's no justification for him. None at all. If a team straight-up forgot and entered late, then too bad. Sorry. But this situation is almost entirely the fault of the state director.

Sticking blindly to the rules - in the face of a team who worked extremely hard to get where they are only to be turned down by an irresponsible director - is in no way an option. This isn't a moral dilemma in my opinion. There's no legitimate argument against WM at this point that I can think of, and if anyone has one, please let me know.
http://scioly.org/wiki/index.php/User:Caseyotis
Welcome, welcome
“Goodbye,” said the fox.
“And now here is my secret, a very simple secret:
It is only with the heart that one can see rightly;
what is essential is invisible to the
eye.”
Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

blockhead
Member
Member
Posts: 35
Joined: February 11th, 2013, 2:51 am
Division: Grad
State: NY
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by blockhead » March 12th, 2014, 11:18 am

Casyotis Maybe I should have called it an ethical dilemma. We discuss these things in my church group which is why I called it moral. But don't you think it is an ethical dilemma? Wiki definition "An ethical dilemma is a complex situation that often involves an apparent mental conflict between moral imperatives, in which to obey one would result in transgressing another." Decision to let team go=rule not upheld. Decision not to let team go=Spirit of SO is squashed.

User avatar
caseyotis
Member
Member
Posts: 680
Joined: October 25th, 2012, 7:53 pm
Division: C
State: NY
Location: Ithaca, NY, studying.
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by caseyotis » March 12th, 2014, 11:29 am

blockhead wrote:Casyotis Maybe I should have called it an ethical dilemma. We discuss these things in my church group which is why I called it moral. But don't you think it is an ethical dilemma? Wiki definition "An ethical dilemma is a complex situation that often involves an apparent mental conflict between moral imperatives, in which to obey one would result in transgressing another." Decision to let team go=rule not upheld. Decision not to let team go=Spirit of SO is squashed.
I see your point.
However, the only feasible option is the first one. The spirit of Science Olympiad is far more important than some unnecessary rule. But that's besides the point. The point is that it wasn't really Ward Melville's fault, if I'm getting my information correctly. As stated earlier:
glaciergary wrote:Clearly, NY Science Olympiad has a right to have a deadline. Ward Melville business office did not mail the check in time, and did not meet that deadline. NY Science Olympiad has a practice to inform any team that has not submitted paperwork a week before the deadline. Mr. Miller, the state director, called over 25 schools to inform them that their participation at the state tournament may be in jeopardy. He called and left a message with one of the WM coaches on her Long Island answering machine. However, this particular coach is retired and spends the winter in Florida. She helps out with the regional and state tournaments, but does not actively coach the team on a weekly basis.

The head coach was not informed of the problem until after the deadline, and when the decision to withdraw the invitation to states was made. The head coach immediately sent a personal check on Monday which arrived on Tuesday. The bottom line is that the team was never informed of the problem until it was too late to do anything. The wrong person was contacted.
Honestly, exceptions should be made. Weighing the pros and cons of the situation just shows that it's not worth it to not allow Ward Melville to compete in an event just because their paperwork was late at the fault of Mr. Miller. I wouldn't be so vocal in my support of WM if it wasn't the fault of Mr. Miller.
http://scioly.org/wiki/index.php/User:Caseyotis
Welcome, welcome
“Goodbye,” said the fox.
“And now here is my secret, a very simple secret:
It is only with the heart that one can see rightly;
what is essential is invisible to the
eye.”
Le Petit Prince, Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

winneratlife
Member
Member
Posts: 335
Joined: December 16th, 2009, 3:52 pm
Division: Grad
State: MI
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 0

Re: New York 2014

Post by winneratlife » March 12th, 2014, 11:30 am

caseyotis wrote:
The difference is that WM should have gotten the registration in on time, but Mr. Miller made a mistake and is punishing the team for that. There's no justification for him. None at all. If a team straight-up forgot and entered late, then too bad. Sorry. But this situation is almost entirely the fault of the state director.

Sticking blindly to the rules - in the face of a team who worked extremely hard to get where they are only to be turned down by an irresponsible director - is in no way an option. This isn't a moral dilemma in my opinion. There's no legitimate argument against WM at this point that I can think of, and if anyone has one, please let me know.
There's the precedent that was set in 2009(?) and 2011(?). There's also the fact that the rule as it currently reads backs Harold up. There's the idea that making an exception this time could lead to a slippery slope that destroys the integrity of the deadline.

Now, I don't agree with any of these arguments. But honestly, if you want any chance at changing his mind, the most important thing is that you understand where he's coming from.

Locked

Return to “2014 Invitationals, Regionals, and States”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests