Wind Power B/C

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daydreamer0023
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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby daydreamer0023 » May 4th, 2016, 6:52 pm

Thank you all so much for the input! If you all don't mind, I would like to add on to my previous question and fl0w's question: By a drag type design, are you referring to a pinwheel type blade? Are pinwheel type blades, if designed/positioned well, effective enough or is it better to use 3-4 balsa blades with airfoil and a slight pitch adjustment?
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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby 0ddrenaline » May 4th, 2016, 7:38 pm

Pinwheels will absolutely not be winning designs with tough competition. I brought well made pinwheels to three competitions before I realized it wasn't the best design. I won at MI state with balsa blades, and on my setup at home my state blade's voltage was only about 92% of my best blade's voltage. Getting the best blade shape took many hours of trial and error along with meticulous craftsmanship. Making the shape just right is definitely what pushed the blade to the top.

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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby calvin102111 » May 5th, 2016, 2:55 pm

daydreamer0023 wrote:Thank you all so much for the input! If you all don't mind, I would like to add on to my previous question and fl0w's question: By a drag type design, are you referring to a pinwheel type blade? Are pinwheel type blades, if designed/positioned well, effective enough or is it better to use 3-4 balsa blades with airfoil and a slight pitch adjustment?

Yes, my mistake. Just realized what I said. The 3-4 blade design with an airfoil works the best. If you would like, I can PM you pictures of the design that I used at state.
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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby daydreamer0023 » May 5th, 2016, 4:49 pm

calvin102111 wrote:
daydreamer0023 wrote:Thank you all so much for the input! If you all don't mind, I would like to add on to my previous question and fl0w's question: By a drag type design, are you referring to a pinwheel type blade? Are pinwheel type blades, if designed/positioned well, effective enough or is it better to use 3-4 balsa blades with airfoil and a slight pitch adjustment?

Yes, my mistake. Just realized what I said. The 3-4 blade design with an airfoil works the best. If you would like, I can PM you pictures of the design that I used at state.


Sure, that would be great! Thank you so much! :D
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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby chalker » May 6th, 2016, 7:44 pm

JustDroobles wrote:
chalker wrote:As I mentioned above, there seemed to be some confusion due to the diagrams in the rules this year. Below are some modified diagrams I've made. Any suggestions / comments on whether these will help clear up the confusion?


The biggest area of confusion when I have run Wind Power is the cleared area in a 3 cm radius on the back. So maybe instead of showing a front view, show a back view with the forbidden area outlined with a dashed line. I would also suggest showing the 3 cm radius the same as you show the blade radius, even if you have to make the diagram a bit bigger. Another issue is that competitors may not have put their blade in the 3 cm radius, but put tape or glue of something else that could still interfere with mounting their device. Rule 3f could be reworded to clarify this.



Some good feedback. How's this for updated diagrams?
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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby calvin102111 » May 6th, 2016, 8:50 pm

chalker wrote:
JustDroobles wrote:
chalker wrote:As I mentioned above, there seemed to be some confusion due to the diagrams in the rules this year. Below are some modified diagrams I've made. Any suggestions / comments on whether these will help clear up the confusion?


The biggest area of confusion when I have run Wind Power is the cleared area in a 3 cm radius on the back. So maybe instead of showing a front view, show a back view with the forbidden area outlined with a dashed line. I would also suggest showing the 3 cm radius the same as you show the blade radius, even if you have to make the diagram a bit bigger. Another issue is that competitors may not have put their blade in the 3 cm radius, but put tape or glue of something else that could still interfere with mounting their device. Rule 3f could be reworded to clarify this.



Some good feedback. How's this for updated diagrams?

I like it. It's much more clear on how far back the blades are allowed to extend. EDIT: Also, the picture showing how the far out the blades can extend (20 cm and 14 cm) is much more clean.
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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby kenniky » May 6th, 2016, 9:27 pm

The side view is more like a top view... I'd suggest rotating the diagram 90 degrees in order to make it make more sense visually, but that's just me.

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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby PHXcoach » May 7th, 2016, 12:34 am

These are a definite improvement. The only thing that still bothers me is that the 3 cm still seems to be hanging out there. Would it help to add a center axis line to the top view so that the 3 cm measurement is clearly from the center line to the edge of the gray keep out ?

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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby fl0w » May 7th, 2016, 5:36 am

kenniky wrote:The side view is more like a top view... I'd suggest rotating the diagram 90 degrees in order to make it make more sense visually, but that's just me.


Going off of this, I'd also suggest renaming it to "Example Assembly Top View". It's almost like a birds eye view, rather than looking at it from the side.
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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby chalker » May 7th, 2016, 6:39 pm

fl0w wrote:
kenniky wrote:The side view is more like a top view... I'd suggest rotating the diagram 90 degrees in order to make it make more sense visually, but that's just me.


Going off of this, I'd also suggest renaming it to "Example Assembly Top View". It's almost like a birds eye view, rather than looking at it from the side.


Note that because the blades rotate, the side view and top view are inherently going to be identical.

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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby kenniky » May 7th, 2016, 7:41 pm

chalker wrote:
fl0w wrote:
kenniky wrote:The side view is more like a top view... I'd suggest rotating the diagram 90 degrees in order to make it make more sense visually, but that's just me.


Going off of this, I'd also suggest renaming it to "Example Assembly Top View". It's almost like a birds eye view, rather than looking at it from the side.


Note that because the blades rotate, the side view and top view are inherently going to be identical.

I meant more like this, below, so that the mounting plane is vertical instead of horizontal

(obviously with rotated text)
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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby PHXcoach » May 9th, 2016, 9:51 am

chalker wrote:
fl0w wrote:
kenniky wrote:The side view is more like a top view... I'd suggest rotating the diagram 90 degrees in order to make it make more sense visually, but that's just me.


Going off of this, I'd also suggest renaming it to "Example Assembly Top View". It's almost like a birds eye view, rather than looking at it from the side.


Note that because the blades rotate, the side view and top view are inherently going to be identical.


I actually like the top view. Maybe just rename it "Example Assembly Top/Side View" since they are the same (except that I can read the horizontal text more easily)

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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby PHXcoach » May 9th, 2016, 9:59 am

One more pedantic suggestion.

Change the text in 4.a from "once with the fan at a high wind speed and once at a low wind speed" to "once with the fan at a low wind speed and once at a high wind speed".

At all events we tested the low speed first, then the high speed. This way if the assembly failed (blades flying off, etc) at high wind speed they could still get a score from the low wind speed test. I understand that the current wording does not require a test order, but it does imply one.

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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby GoldenKnight1 » May 9th, 2016, 11:21 am

PHXcoach wrote:One more pedantic suggestion.

Change the text in 4.a from "once with the fan at a high wind speed and once at a low wind speed" to "once with the fan at a low wind speed and once at a high wind speed".

At all events we tested the low speed first, then the high speed. This way if the assembly failed (blades flying off, etc) at high wind speed they could still get a score from the low wind speed test. I understand that the current wording does not require a test order, but it does imply one.


As someone who has been an event supervisor for this event I do not want it forced which has to be first. I prefered having two teams coming up at the same time with one doing the low speed first and the other testing high speed first and then having them switch. It is faster this way and makes it more doable to get through 16+ teams in a time block. If there were only 10 teams it would not be an issue but at larger touraments as much as 6 minutes per team can be tight.

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Re: Wind Power B/C

Postby PHXcoach » May 9th, 2016, 12:25 pm

GoldenKnight1 wrote:
PHXcoach wrote:One more pedantic suggestion.

Change the text in 4.a from "once with the fan at a high wind speed and once at a low wind speed" to "once with the fan at a low wind speed and once at a high wind speed".

At all events we tested the low speed first, then the high speed. This way if the assembly failed (blades flying off, etc) at high wind speed they could still get a score from the low wind speed test. I understand that the current wording does not require a test order, but it does imply one.


As someone who has been an event supervisor for this event I do not want it forced which has to be first. I prefered having two teams coming up at the same time with one doing the low speed first and the other testing high speed first and then having them switch. It is faster this way and makes it more doable to get through 16+ teams in a time block. If there were only 10 teams it would not be an issue but at larger touraments as much as 6 minutes per team can be tight.


I am not suggesting trying to force any order (after all the event supervisor has discretion) just imply a different default. For the events I supervised we called up one team at a time for inspection, then low speed test, finally high speed test. For busier events we could sequence teams so that we could have different teams at different steps in the 3 step blade testing process. The most we had was 10 teams in one session so I had it easier.


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