## Codebusters C

Name
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Location: Syosset

### Re: Codebusters C

At a recent competition, there was a Baconian alphabet problem. Instead of A's and B's, they used the symbols <, >, [, ], {, }, (, and ). No hint was provided, and there were 52 letters in total. There were no repeating sets of symbols. How would someone tackle this problem?
I would attempt to see how grouping would create a logical response. On a test I took they used a Baconian with odd and even numbers as A and B. I suspect that in this case, A is most likely <, [, { and B is most likely >, ], }. If I could see how the test was formatted I could test this theory out but in a nutshell, you need to find patterns in Baconian ciphers. Also, don't forget to bunch everything into fives.
Adding on: with bacon the first thing to always do is to separate the groups of 5 by drawing a line between them or something. After that look for a group of 5 that are similar that fit in A or E
So like )>}]} are all similar and fit in the AAAAA for the letter A and those 5 would likely be A
Or (<}([ fit in the AABAA for E
I guess they could be annoying and set them randomly to A and B where there is no pattern. In this case you could count the frequency of each symbol for part of the cipher. Assuming they distribute each A and B equally among the symbols, A appears more frequently then B and you can assume the symbols that appear frequently are the A
South Woods MS/Syosset HS
Favorite Past Events: Microbe, Invasive, Matsci, Fermi
Events!: Astro, Code, hopefully Fossils

"The more cheese, the more holes. The more holes the less cheese. Therefore the more cheese, the less cheese."

jimmy-bond
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Joined: January 8th, 2018, 11:25 pm
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State: HI
Location: On Earth, I think

### Re: Codebusters C

At a recent competition, there was a Baconian alphabet problem. Instead of A's and B's, they used the symbols <, >, [, ], {, }, (, and ). No hint was provided, and there were 52 letters in total. There were no repeating sets of symbols. How would someone tackle this problem?
I would attempt to see how grouping would create a logical response. On a test I took they used a Baconian with odd and even numbers as A and B. I suspect that in this case, A is most likely <, [, { and B is most likely >, ], }. If I could see how the test was formatted I could test this theory out but in a nutshell, you need to find patterns in Baconian ciphers. Also, don't forget to bunch everything into fives.
Adding on: with bacon the first thing to always do is to separate the groups of 5 by drawing a line between them or something. After that look for a group of 5 that are similar that fit in A or E
So like )>}]} are all similar and fit in the AAAAA for the letter A and those 5 would likely be A
Or (<}([ fit in the AABAA for E
I guess they could be annoying and set them randomly to A and B where there is no pattern. In this case you could count the frequency of each symbol for part of the cipher. Assuming they distribute each A and B equally among the symbols, A appears more frequently then B and you can assume the symbols that appear frequently are the A
That was the first thing I tried, but I got 4 consonants for the first 4 letters so I stopped there. I also tried the possible combinations of groups designated as certain letters (ex. < and > are A, ( and ) are A, [ and ] are B, and { and } are B). I tried a few combinations but every time, I would get three consecutive consonants at the beginning. So my guess is they were being annoying.

I thought about the second strategy you mentioned (frequency) but quickly dismissed it. All symbols were represented relatively equally (at least it seemed so, as I did not bother to count it) so it would be strenuous to guess and test.
If life gives you melons, you're dyslexic.

Why can't dinosaurs ski? Because they're dead.

Season's over, I can sleep now.
`Code Busters(16), DD(40), FQ(39), Forensics(36), WQ(27)`
`CriB(26), DP (11), FF(1), MM(14), P&P(6)`
`CriB(36), DD(35), FF(2), MM(20)`

Name
Member
Posts: 293
Joined: January 21st, 2018, 4:41 pm
Division: C
State: NY
Location: Syosset

### Re: Codebusters C

That was the first thing I tried, but I got 4 consonants for the first 4 letters so I stopped there. I also tried the possible combinations of groups designated as certain letters (ex. < and > are A, ( and ) are A, [ and ] are B, and { and } are B). I tried a few combinations but every time, I would get three consecutive consonants at the beginning. So my guess is they were being annoying.

I thought about the second strategy you mentioned (frequency) but quickly dismissed it. All symbols were represented relatively equally (at least it seemed so, as I did not bother to count it) so it would be strenuous to guess and test.
Ok so I just took a completly random quote and encrypted it with Bacon cipher (24 letter). Almost exactly 2/3 of the letters were As, so there should be a noticable difference between frequencies where a symbol that represents A appears twice as often. You probably don't need to count too many letters, maybe 5ish would be sufficent to get a good idea.
Also what compitition is this? Im kinda interested in what the actual question is.
South Woods MS/Syosset HS
Favorite Past Events: Microbe, Invasive, Matsci, Fermi
Events!: Astro, Code, hopefully Fossils

"The more cheese, the more holes. The more holes the less cheese. Therefore the more cheese, the less cheese."

jimmy-bond
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: January 8th, 2018, 11:25 pm
Division: C
State: HI
Location: On Earth, I think

### Re: Codebusters C

That was the first thing I tried, but I got 4 consonants for the first 4 letters so I stopped there. I also tried the possible combinations of groups designated as certain letters (ex. < and > are A, ( and ) are A, [ and ] are B, and { and } are B). I tried a few combinations but every time, I would get three consecutive consonants at the beginning. So my guess is they were being annoying.

I thought about the second strategy you mentioned (frequency) but quickly dismissed it. All symbols were represented relatively equally (at least it seemed so, as I did not bother to count it) so it would be strenuous to guess and test.
Ok so I just took a completly random quote and encrypted it with Bacon cipher (24 letter). Almost exactly 2/3 of the letters were As, so there should be a noticable difference between frequencies where a symbol that represents A appears twice as often. You probably don't need to count too many letters, maybe 5ish would be sufficent to get a good idea.
Also what compitition is this? Im kinda interested in what the actual question is.
Pearl City High School Invitational, took place around 4 hours ago. I'll be getting my test on Tuesday and will post the question then if I remember, and if I get hold of the answer key, I'll post the answer
If life gives you melons, you're dyslexic.

Why can't dinosaurs ski? Because they're dead.

Season's over, I can sleep now.
`Code Busters(16), DD(40), FQ(39), Forensics(36), WQ(27)`
`CriB(26), DP (11), FF(1), MM(14), P&P(6)`
`CriB(36), DD(35), FF(2), MM(20)`

jimmy-bond
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: January 8th, 2018, 11:25 pm
Division: C
State: HI
Location: On Earth, I think

### Re: Codebusters C

I got my test back and realized that they encoded it using a 24-letter alphabet instead of 26 and I am now kicking myself, because the left symbols were A and right symbols were B, which is what I tried initially.
If life gives you melons, you're dyslexic.

Why can't dinosaurs ski? Because they're dead.

Season's over, I can sleep now.
`Code Busters(16), DD(40), FQ(39), Forensics(36), WQ(27)`
`CriB(26), DP (11), FF(1), MM(14), P&P(6)`
`CriB(36), DD(35), FF(2), MM(20)`

dragonfruit35
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Joined: February 28th, 2015, 7:49 am
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State: VA
Location: TJHSST

### Re: Codebusters C

I got my test back and realized that they encoded it using a 24-letter alphabet instead of 26 and I am now kicking myself, because the left symbols were A and right symbols were B, which is what I tried initially.
Oh nooooo

```(VT/FFX/Reg/States/Nats)
MV 1/1/5/-/- Mission 3/4/4/-/- Herp 7/2/4/-/-
WiFi -/-/-/4/13  Indoor Bottle Rocket -/-/-/1/- Code -/-/-/-/1```
```(Duke/Reg/Cornell/States/Nats)
MV 2/3/7/3/10 Mission 3/7/- Sounds 4/2/- Code 3/1/1/1/5 Herp -/-/11/1/26```
[/color]
Goooooooo Colonials!!!

jimmy-bond
Member
Posts: 314
Joined: January 8th, 2018, 11:25 pm
Division: C
State: HI
Location: On Earth, I think

### Re: Codebusters C

I got my test back and realized that they encoded it using a 24-letter alphabet instead of 26 and I am now kicking myself, because the left symbols were A and right symbols were B, which is what I tried initially.
Oh nooooo

Thank you. I didn't know that. That might be the reason I mess up on most practice tests.
If life gives you melons, you're dyslexic.

Why can't dinosaurs ski? Because they're dead.

Season's over, I can sleep now.
`Code Busters(16), DD(40), FQ(39), Forensics(36), WQ(27)`
`CriB(26), DP (11), FF(1), MM(14), P&P(6)`
`CriB(36), DD(35), FF(2), MM(20)`

Carrot
Member
Posts: 32
Joined: January 8th, 2018, 8:16 am
State: OH

### Re: Codebusters C

For solving the timed question, can you get it checked when you still have 1 or 2 errors (as often I can't think of the last word with two missing letters in it) or do you have to fully solve the problem?

Riptide
Exalted Member
Posts: 191
Joined: December 4th, 2017, 7:09 pm
State: TX
Contact:

### Re: Codebusters C

For solving the timed question, can you get it checked when you still have 1 or 2 errors (as often I can't think of the last word with two missing letters in it) or do you have to fully solve the problem?
Yes you can have it checked with up to 2 errors.
University of California at Berkeley '23
Seven Lakes High School '19
Seven Lakes Junior High '15

mpnobivucyxtz
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Posts: 34
Joined: January 22nd, 2018, 6:25 pm
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State: NY

### Re: Codebusters C

Is there a standard format for this event? Last year's nationals test provided frequency tables and the Vigenere table as well, but some invitationals I've seen provide neither. What can I expect from regionals and states?